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Author Message
Skeleton Man1

External


Since: Jul 25, 2004
Posts: 121



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:45 pm
Post subject: Lightning protection

Hi guys,

Can anyone reccomend a good product (preferably a power bar or simmilar) to
protect computer equipment against a lightning strike ? I'm looking for
something with a connected equipment warranty.. (ie. if my PC goes up in
smoke while connected to their product, they pay for the replacement)

While I'm at it.. is there any way you can insure just your PC and
associated equipment ? Insurance on the house itself (even just contents)
isn't possible right now, but I'd like to have some safeguard.. also, can
you insure against data loss ? (besides making a backup)

Chris

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DevilsPGD

External


Since: Nov 16, 2005
Posts: 30



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Lightning protection [Login to view extended thread Info.]

In message <M6GdnYxeU9ZAjfvbnZ2dnUVZ_oGlnZ2d.TakeThisOut@wightman.ca> "Skeleton Man"
<invalid.TakeThisOut@guestwho.com> wrote:

>Can anyone reccomend a good product (preferably a power bar or simmilar) to
>protect computer equipment against a lightning strike ? I'm looking for
>something with a connected equipment warranty.. (ie. if my PC goes up in
>smoke while connected to their product, they pay for the replacement)

Not much will stop a lightning strike, but insurance is possible.

>While I'm at it.. is there any way you can insure just your PC and
>associated equipment ? Insurance on the house itself (even just contents)
>isn't possible right now, but I'd like to have some safeguard.. also, can
>you insure against data loss ? (besides making a backup)

In general, just pick up house insurance with low limit, this will do
the trick, just watch your exclusions.

As far as data loss, generally this is extremely expensive, you're much
better off learning to do a backup. It is cheaper to pay for off-site
backup services then to pay for insurance.

--
If quitters never win, and winners never quit,
what fool came up with, "Quit while you're ahead"?

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Jon Danniken

External


Since: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 230



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:56 am
Post subject: Re: Lightning protection [Login to view extended thread Info.]

"Skeleton Man" wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> Can anyone reccomend a good product (preferably a power bar or simmilar)
> to
> protect computer equipment against a lightning strike ? I'm looking for
> something with a connected equipment warranty.. (ie. if my PC goes up in
> smoke while connected to their product, they pay for the replacement)

Belkin does, as do others. The way Belkin words their guarantee, is that
they will pay for any equipment damaged by a surge, but only if *every*
connection to the PC goes through their protection product. In other words,
the power line, and if you are connected to the phone or cable line, those
too have to pass through the protection device.

Jon
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DaveW

External


Since: May 21, 2007
Posts: 68



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Lightning protection [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Nothing will stop a lightening strike. You cannot just insure your PC. You
cannot insure against data loss (make a backup.)

--
---------------------
DaveW
"Skeleton Man" <invalid.RemoveThis@guestwho.com> wrote in message
news:M6GdnYxeU9ZAjfvbnZ2dnUVZ_oGlnZ2d@wightman.ca...
> Hi guys,
>
> Can anyone reccomend a good product (preferably a power bar or simmilar)
> to
> protect computer equipment against a lightning strike ? I'm looking for
> something with a connected equipment warranty.. (ie. if my PC goes up in
> smoke while connected to their product, they pay for the replacement)
>
> While I'm at it.. is there any way you can insure just your PC and
> associated equipment ? Insurance on the house itself (even just contents)
> isn't possible right now, but I'd like to have some safeguard.. also, can
> you insure against data loss ? (besides making a backup)
>
> Chris
>
>
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DevilsPGD

External


Since: Nov 16, 2005
Posts: 30



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Lightning protection [Login to view extended thread Info.]

In message <Ju6dnfW6w_dtqvrbnZ2dnUVZ_uCinZ2d RemoveThis @comcast.com> "DaveW"
<nothing RemoveThis @bot.org> wrote:

>Nothing will stop a lightening strike.

Either concrete or rubber will, although you do need a pretty good
thickness.

>You cannot just insure your PC.

Incorrect. Even residential property insurance can be contents only,
and can be purchased in small enough increments that it will only cover
your PC.

Some surge protectors also include coverage, although you'll want to
read the terms closely.

>You cannot insure against data loss (make a backup.)

Definitely incorrect (although this one will cost ya)

--
If quitters never win, and winners never quit,
what fool came up with, "Quit while you're ahead"?
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w_tom

External


Since: Jun 06, 2007
Posts: 12



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Lightning protection [Login to view extended thread Info.]

On Jun 5, 9:45 pm, "Skeleton Man" <inva... RemoveThis @guestwho.com> wrote:
> Can anyone reccomend a good product (preferably a power bar or simmilar) to
> protect computer equipment against a lightning strike ? I'm looking for
> something with a connected equipment warranty.. (ie. if my PC goes up in
> smoke while connected to their product, they pay for the replacement)
>
> While I'm at it.. is there any way you can insure just your PC and
> associated equipment ?

Many posts violate what is well known about surge protection. For
example, one assumed concrete might stop lightning. Hardly. Concrete
is considered a better conductor.

It is routine to suffer direct lightning strikes without failure.
But some have assumed:
> Not much will stop a lightning strike ...

Correct. Effective protection means not even trying to stop
lightning. Effective protection is as Ben Franklin demonstrated in
1752. Did he block lightning from finding a conductive path through
wooden church steeples? (Notice that wood is also a conductor.) Of
course not. Franklin gave lightning a better and non-destructive path
to earth.

1) Lightning seeks earth ground. 2) Effective protection is about
conducting lightning to earth so that it does not find a destructive
path via DSL modem or computer - or church steeple.

Your telco connects to overhead wires everywhere in town. Its
computer may be threatened by hundreds of surges during each
thunderstorm. So what does your telco do where damage is never
acceptable?

Did those other posters forget to mention your telco installs a same
protector where phone line enters your building? Some claim that
protection is not possible or recommend a plug-in solution. Not one
post even mentions the effective protector installed by your telco ...
for free.

Sometimes protection does not work because the connection to
earthing is insufficient or missing. As with Franklin's experiment,
the lightning rod is not protection. Protection is the earthing.
Lightning rod or surge protection - are only as effective as their
earthing.

Meanwhile what is the most common source of modem damage? First an
electrical path is created from cloud, to AC electric, through modem,
out via phone line protector to earth ground. Then current flows
through everything in that path. Then something fails in that path.

How does your telco protect its computer connected everywhere to
overhead wires? Every wire in every cable connects to earth where it
enters the building. You must do same to protect your electronics.

Exampled is the 'whole house' protector installed by telco on phone
lines. But have you done same to AC electric? Every AC electric
wire either connects to earth ground directly or must make that
connection - 'less than 10 feet' - via a 'whole house' protector.

Responsible manufacturers such as GE, Intermatic, Leviton, Cutler-
Hammer, Siemens, and Square D make these protectors. How do you know
other plug-in protectors are not effective? 1) No dedicated wire for
that 'less than 10 foot' earthing connection. 2) Manufacturer avoids
all discussion about earthing.

Another claimed a protector needs a three prong wall receptacle.
Yes. Third prong is required for human safety. But third prong does
not provide earthing for protection. Among the long list of reasons
includes 'many times more than 10 foot' connection.

Every wire that enters a building must be earthed. That means cable
TV and satellite dish also must make a short earthing connection to
the same earthing electrode. Notice no protector even required.
Earthing is necessary for protection. Surges are not stopped. Surges
are earthed. Better earthing means better protection. The protector
is only as effective as its earthing.

'Whole house' protector can be purchases even in Lowes and Home
Depot - some for less than $50. And, of course, that earthing to
breaker box must meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code so
as to make that 'less than 10 foot' earthing connection.
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Vester

External


Since: Jun 07, 2007
Posts: 1



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:24 am
Post subject: Re: Lightning protection [Login to view extended thread Info.]

My home computers, modem, router, and television are all on
APC battery backup UPS
units. DSL sometimes works with the units
although my ISP says don't use a surge protector on the aDSL line.
The phone line from the wall jack to the modem is about six inches. I
have underground utilities which help. I've only lost one modem in
six years here in South Carolina, USA.
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Mike Walsh

External


Since: May 30, 2005
Posts: 146



(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:34 am
Post subject: Re: Lightning protection [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Some modems have built-in surge protection e.g. my old 28.8 Zoom modem which has outlived several 56K modems. I still use the Zoom for fax since my last 56K modem died.

CBFalconer wrote:
>
> Vester wrote:
> >
> > although my ISP says don't use a surge protector on the aDSL line.
> > The phone line from the wall jack to the modem is about six inches.
> > I have underground utilities which help. I've only lost one modem
> > in six years here in South Carolina, USA.
>
> I've been using the same modem for at least 8 years, sometimes
> protected, sometimes not. Never had a problem. US-Robotics.

--
Mike Walsh
West Palm Beach, Florida, U.S.A.
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Bud--

External


Since: Jun 14, 2006
Posts: 30



(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:16 am
Post subject: Re: Lightning protection [Login to view extended thread Info.]

CBFalconer wrote:
> Bud-- wrote:
>> w_tom wrote:
>>
> ... big snip ...
>>> 'Whole house' protector can be purchases even in Lowes and Home
>>> Depot - some for less than $50.
>> w_ has never provided a link to a $50 suppressor. Or provided the
>> specs for one.
>
> He seems to go off when anyone mentions 'protection' in any form.
>

I believe he uses google-groups to search for "surge" and maybe
"lightning". Also "power supply" with a different spiel.

--
bud--
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kony

External


Since: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 6145



(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:26 am
Post subject: Re: Lightning protection [Login to view extended thread Info.]

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 03:05:13 -0500, Bud--
<remove.BudNews.TakeThisOut@isp.com> wrote:


>w_ is fond of making up what others claim. I repeat what the IEEE guide
>says - plug-in suppressors work by clamping not earthing. The guide says
>earthing occurs elsewhere.


No, it says they can be effective. It's like saying a steak
knife can be effective at driving off a burglar, but don't
be surprised if you happen upon a burglar that sees it and
laughs at you instead.
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Bud--

External


Since: Jun 14, 2006
Posts: 30



(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Lightning protection [Login to view extended thread Info.]

kony wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 03:05:13 -0500, Bud--
> <remove.BudNews.DeleteThis@isp.com> wrote:
>
>
>> w_ is fond of making up what others claim. I repeat what the IEEE guide
>> says - plug-in suppressors work by clamping not earthing. The guide says
>> earthing occurs elsewhere.
>
>
> No, it says they can be effective. It's like saying a steak
> knife can be effective at driving off a burglar, but don't
> be surprised if you happen upon a burglar that sees it and
> laughs at you instead.


Everything I have read is that suppressors with high ratings will
protect against lightning induced surges short of a near direct strike.
The surge current to a plug–in suppressor is greatly limited by the
impedance of the supply wiring. It is easy to get plug-in suppressors
with high surge current ratings - so they will survive a few very
strong surges. It is also easy to get high Joule ratings - so they will
survive a large number of strong surges. That is why some manufacturers
can offer connected equipment warranties. Everything I have read
indicates suppressors with very high ratings, readily available, would
protect against anything but a lightning strike on a service drop to a
house (and are likely to even withstand that). Few people would expect
protection for a lightning strike to the house itself.

I said: “Suppressor ratings range from junk to very high.”
And “With high ratings a suppressor is likely to protect from anything
but a very near hit. High ratings are why manufacturers can have
connected equipment warranties on some suppressors.”
And that all signal and power wires have to go through the suppressor.
Seems to me that is adequate qualification.

You seem to think plug–in suppressors are not particularly useful. That
is certainly not what the IEEE and NIST guides say. You also insist
“effective” means 100%. By that definition steel frame buildings are not
”effective”, as has been recently seen. Nor are fuses, circuit breakers
or locks. I’m not sure anything is “effective”.

--
bud--
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kony

External


Since: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 6145



(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Lightning protection [Login to view extended thread Info.]

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:31:41 -0500, Bud--
<remove.BudNews.DeleteThis@isp.com> wrote:

>kony wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 03:05:13 -0500, Bud--
>> <remove.BudNews.DeleteThis@isp.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> w_ is fond of making up what others claim. I repeat what the IEEE guide
>>> says - plug-in suppressors work by clamping not earthing. The guide says
>>> earthing occurs elsewhere.
>>
>>
>> No, it says they can be effective. It's like saying a steak
>> knife can be effective at driving off a burglar, but don't
>> be surprised if you happen upon a burglar that sees it and
>> laughs at you instead.
>
>
>Everything I have read is that suppressors with high ratings will
>protect against lightning induced surges short of a near direct strike.
>The surge current to a plug–in suppressor is greatly limited by the
>impedance of the supply wiring.

So is the return path to ground. Remember that when there
is this higher impedance to ground, a larger % of the surge
ends up going through the equipment. Always "some" of the
surge does but with this raised impedance the % is more
significant.
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nobody1

External


Since: Feb 16, 2004
Posts: 32



(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Lightning protection [Login to view extended thread Info.]

You can get a full house surge suppressor installed by an electrician to
protect against surges, but nothing will protect against a direct or close
lightning strike, i was told.


Alan

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------
** Please use address alanh77[at]comcast.net to reply via e-mail. **

Posted using registered MR/2 ICE Newsreader #564 and eComStation 1.21

BBS - The Nerve Center Telnet FidoNet 261/1000 tncbbs.no-ip.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Bud--

External


Since: Jun 14, 2006
Posts: 30



(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:40 am
Post subject: Re: Lightning protection [Login to view extended thread Info.]

kony wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:31:41 -0500, Bud--
> <remove.BudNews.DeleteThis@isp.com> wrote:
>
>> kony wrote:
>>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 03:05:13 -0500, Bud--
>>> <remove.BudNews.DeleteThis@isp.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> w_ is fond of making up what others claim. I repeat what the IEEE guide
>>>> says - plug-in suppressors work by clamping not earthing. The guide says
>>>> earthing occurs elsewhere.
>>>
>>> No, it says they can be effective. It's like saying a steak
>>> knife can be effective at driving off a burglar, but don't
>>> be surprised if you happen upon a burglar that sees it and
>>> laughs at you instead.
>>
>> Everything I have read is that suppressors with high ratings will
>> protect against lightning induced surges short of a near direct strike.
>> The surge current to a plug–in suppressor is greatly limited by the
>> impedance of the supply wiring.
>
> So is the return path to ground. Remember that when there
> is this higher impedance to ground, a larger % of the surge
> ends up going through the equipment. Always "some" of the
> surge does but with this raised impedance the % is more
> significant.
>

The IEEE guide shows an example of how plug-in suppressors work,
starting pdf page 40. The voltage on all wires - power and signal - is
clamped to the common ground at the suppressor. The voltage difference
between wires connected to the protected equipment is clamped low enough
to not cause damage to the equipment. Surges do not go through the
equipment.

As explained at the bottom of page 40, connecting the surge to earth
does not primarily occur through the plug-in suppressor. In the example,
the “vast majority” of the surge current goes through the bond wire from
a CATV entry block to the power service earth connection. The guide says
further that the (US) NEC intends the bond wire to be the path to earth,
not the path through the plug-in suppressor. The current that does flow
through the suppressor goes from the CATV entry block, through the CATV
shield to the suppressor, through the ground and neutral wire to the
power service. The protected equipment is not in the path.

A shorter version of this was included in both my responses to w_.

One of the most useful applications for plug-in suppressors is when the
protected load connects to both power and phone, CATV, ... wires. The
suppressor prevents ground reference differences between the power and
signal wires at the protected equipment, as illustrated in the example .
According to the NIST guide, US insurance information indicates
equipment most frequently damaged by lightning is
computers with a modem connection
TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV
connections).
All can be damaged by surges causing high voltage between power and
signal wires.
The 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide, both using plug-in
suppressors, are for a computer with phone connection and a TV system
with CATV, phone and satellite connections.

I think you have complained in the past that the ground reference level
at the plug-in suppressor is elevated. If the protected equipment has a
metal enclosure it is likely to be connected to a 3 wire plug. If the
enclosure has a path to a ground at a different potential, the ground
reference level at the equipment and suppressor would be shifted, but
the voltages would be clamped to the new reference level. If insulation
is in the path, a surge is a very short event and the voltage withstand
is much higher than normal. There are other possibilities, but in quite
a bit of reading no one has raised this as a practical problem.

And the same concern can be raised with a "whole house" protector.
Assume the power system is earthed with only a ground rod. If you have
a very good rod-to-earth resistance of 10 ohms and a modest 1,000A surge
earth current, the voltage from the power ground bar to `absolute' earth
is 10,000V. As a general rule, 70% of the voltage drop from a ground rod
is in the first 3 feet. From the power/signal ground system to earth
beyond 3 feet will be 7,000V or more. This can show up, for instance, in
basements. Or as the IEEE guide notes, at outside pad mounted
compressor/condenser units.

--
bud--
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kony

External


Since: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 6145



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Lightning protection [Login to view extended thread Info.]

On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 02:40:43 -0500, Bud--
<remove.BudNews DeleteThis @isp.com> wrote:


>The IEEE guide shows an example of how plug-in suppressors work,
>starting pdf page 40. The voltage on all wires - power and signal - is
>clamped to the common ground at the suppressor. The voltage difference
>between wires connected to the protected equipment is clamped low enough
>to not cause damage to the equipment. Surges do not go through the
>equipment.


Wrong. Because your ground is at a relative impedance away
from earth ground, it does present a risk to equipment and
this is why more serious surge prevention does not only rely
on these plug-in protectors.
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