possible NV40 specs plus NV50 tidbits

 > They don't mention how many PCI slots the cooling system blocks... or how
 > many hundred watts the fan will require.

It'll probably be a one PCI slot blocked affair again, that seems to be the
trend with Nvidia these days - sadly - and then they'll leave it up to their
partners to develop a 1-slot solution.

As for the fan, I guess it'll consume maybe half a watt or so, but the card
as a whole might well need upwards of a hundred.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: possible NV40 specs plus NV50 tidbits 

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:59:19 GMT
"Lenny" <you.DeleteThis@wish.haha> wrote:

 >
  > > Er, the PCI slot next to the AGP is pretty useless anyway, since it
  > > shares interrupts with the AGP slot.
 >
 > This is not true, both because they don't share on ALL mobos, and also
 > because sharing is NO PROBLEM in modern systems.

Lemme guess, you believe in the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny too.

When he says it's shared, he means that it's hard wired to the same
interrupt--in other words if Windows dynamically reassigns the interrupt
for one it necessarily reassigns the interrupt for the other, which
_does_ cause problems if the devices in the two slots are both
high-traffic devices.

 > If you have sharing
 > issues, the hard/software in your system is faulty.
 >
 > I shared the IRQ on my vidcard with two other PCI devices (none in the
 > 2nd slot) when I ran WinME, no issues whatsoever. On XP, I have FOUR
 > devices sharing with vid-card. Again, no issues. CHeck your own box,
 > chances are very good you'll have things sharing too. It's not an
 > issue, that's the way the system is supposed to work.

You will find under XP that all devices nominally share the same
interrupt. That does not mean that they all use the same
interrupt--windows will reassign interrupts as required by the workload
on the system.
 >
  > > This PCI slot is only safely
  > > useful for something that requires no interrupts.
 >
 > There's almost no PCI devices that don't. PCI devices are almost
 > exclusively I/O devices, and those almost exclusively use
 > busmastering, which requires an interrupt.
 >
 > Besides, your statement is flat-out WRONG.

Actually, yours is not exactly "flat-out WRONG" but demonstrative of a
lack of understanding of how Windows assigns interrupts and of a lack of
experience that would show you that sometimes automatic interrupt
reassignment and interrupt sharing do not work as well as advertised.

--
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: possible NV40 specs plus NV50 tidbits 

maybe a noobie question, but any ideas on card length?

tim
"NV55" <nvidianv55 DeleteThis @mail.com> wrote in message
news:1c4cde47.0312011930.65ecb465@posting.google.com...
 > while surfing Beyond3D and Rage3D forums, I found:
 >
 > NV40
 > ---
 > 1) 600Mhz core on IBM's 0.13u technology, 48GB/s memory bandwidth with
 > 256-bit GDDR2
 > 2) 8x2 ( possibly 16x0 or 16x1 mode, although I'd find that rather
 > stupid personally due to the focus on AA ).
 > 3) FP32/FP16/FX16, this means PS1.4. is done in FX16 100% legally,
 > while it would seem logical for PS2.0. partial precision to be done in
 > FP16 unless MS decides to expose the HW better in an upcoming DX9
 > revision.
 > 4) ( unsure ) HUGE die, NVIDIA is most likely artificially increasing
 > die size to make cooling more efficient.
 > 5) Slightly beyond PS3.0. / VS3.0. specificiations ( not anywhere as
 > much as PS2.0.+ and VS2.0.+ were compared to the PS/VS2.0. standard
 > though, I assume ).
 > 6) Support of a Programmable Primitive Processor
 > 7) The only units being shared between the VS and the PS are the
 > texture lookup units ( NOT addressing units; addressing is still done
 > on a standard FP32 unit ).
 > 8 ) Most likely no 512MB version, that's still overkill IMO.
 > 9) PCI-Express support, most likely ( but not certainly ) through a
 > compatibility bridge between AGP and PCI-Express.
 > 10) Completely new AA algorithm, most likely a stochaistic(sp?)
 > approach.
 > ---
 > Release: February-March 2004
 >
 > And when it comes to the NV50...
 > ---
 > 1) Full ILDP; sharing of VS/PS units
 > 2) 0.09u most likely
 > 3) Not a TBDR!
 > ---
 > Release: Mid 2005, most likely ( SIGGRAPH? )<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: possible NV40 specs plus NV50 tidbits 

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:02:10 GMT, "Lenny" <you DeleteThis @wish.haha> wrote:

 >
  >> They don't mention how many PCI slots the cooling system blocks... or how
  >> many hundred watts the fan will require.
 >
 >It'll probably be a one PCI slot blocked affair again, that seems to be the
 >trend with Nvidia these days - sadly - and then they'll leave it up to their
 >partners to develop a 1-slot solution.
 >

Er, the PCI slot next to the AGP is pretty useless anyway, since it
shares interrupts with the AGP slot. This PCI slot is only safely
useful for something that requires no interrupts.

John Lewis

 >As for the fan, I guess it'll consume maybe half a watt or so, but the card
 >as a whole might well need upwards of a hundred.
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: possible NV40 specs plus NV50 tidbits 

 > Er, the PCI slot next to the AGP is pretty useless anyway, since it
 > shares interrupts with the AGP slot.

This is not true, both because they don't share on ALL mobos, and also
because sharing is NO PROBLEM in modern systems. If you have sharing issues,
the hard/software in your system is faulty.

I shared the IRQ on my vidcard with two other PCI devices (none in the 2nd
slot) when I ran WinME, no issues whatsoever. On XP, I have FOUR devices
sharing with vid-card. Again, no issues. CHeck your own box, chances are
very good you'll have things sharing too. It's not an issue, that's the way
the system is supposed to work.

 > This PCI slot is only safely
 > useful for something that requires no interrupts.

There's almost no PCI devices that don't. PCI devices are almost exclusively
I/O devices, and those almost exclusively use busmastering, which requires
an interrupt.

Besides, your statement is flat-out WRONG.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: possible NV40 specs plus NV50 tidbits 

() |\/| 3 G /-\ wrote:

 > maybe a noobie question, but any ideas on card length?
 >
 > tim
 > "NV55" <nvidianv55.RemoveThis@mail.com> wrote in message
 > news:1c4cde47.0312011930.65ecb465@posting.google.com...
 >
  >>while surfing Beyond3D and Rage3D forums, I found:
  >>
  >>NV40
  >>---
  >>1) 600Mhz core on IBM's 0.13u technology, 48GB/s memory bandwidth with
  >>256-bit GDDR2
  >>2) 8x2 ( possibly 16x0 or 16x1 mode, although I'd find that rather
  >>stupid personally due to the focus on AA ).
  >>3) FP32/FP16/FX16, this means PS1.4. is done in FX16 100% legally,
  >>while it would seem logical for PS2.0. partial precision to be done in
  >>FP16 unless MS decides to expose the HW better in an upcoming DX9
  >>revision.
  >>4) ( unsure ) HUGE die, NVIDIA is most likely artificially increasing
  >>die size to make cooling more efficient.
  >>5) Slightly beyond PS3.0. / VS3.0. specificiations ( not anywhere as
  >>much as PS2.0.+ and VS2.0.+ were compared to the PS/VS2.0. standard
  >>though, I assume ).
  >>6) Support of a Programmable Primitive Processor
  >>7) The only units being shared between the VS and the PS are the
  >>texture lookup units ( NOT addressing units; addressing is still done
  >>on a standard FP32 unit ).
  >>8 ) Most likely no 512MB version, that's still overkill IMO.
  >>9) PCI-Express support, most likely ( but not certainly ) through a
  >>compatibility bridge between AGP and PCI-Express.
  >>10) Completely new AA algorithm, most likely a stochaistic(sp?)
  >>approach.
  >>---
  >>Release: February-March 2004
  >>
  >>And when it comes to the NV50...
  >>---
  >>1) Full ILDP; sharing of VS/PS units
  >>2) 0.09u most likely
  >>3) Not a TBDR!
  >>---
  >>Release: Mid 2005, most likely ( SIGGRAPH? )
 >
 >
 >

The closer we get to a generalized programmable GPU, the less space a
card will eventually take up. This given with the feature set
indications Beyond3D has written up about DirectX Next (and therefore
reasonable expectations of future hardware support) leads me to believe
generation after next cards (like NV45? or NV50?) will actually use less
chips since they won't rely on VRAM as much as they do a fair sized
primary cache (like the L1 on a normal CPU).

So a 512MB card might be totally unnecessary. Virtual memory addressing
will help a GREAT deal, especially with hitches and stuttering.
Elminating the need to have absolutely every single texture object in
RAM at the time and only what it needs when it needs it (like a single
mip map, or a single portion of a texture element, sort of like
tile-rendering for everything and the AGP bus isn't constantly flooded
with large textures, only small bytes in real time without a performance
hit)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: possible NV40 specs plus NV50 tidbits 

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 02:10:42 GMT
"Lenny" <you DeleteThis @wish.haha> wrote:

 >
  > > Lemme guess, you believe in the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny
  > > too.
 >
 > Right. Nothing beats starting out a post discrediting the one you're
 > replying to. Smart move, I must remember that one if I find facts
 > aren't on my side for once.
 >
  > > When he says it's shared, he means that it's hard wired to the same
  > > interrupt--in other words if Windows dynamically reassigns the
  > > interrupt for one it necessarily reassigns the interrupt for the
  > > other, which_does_ cause problems if the devices in the two slots
  > > are both high-traffic devices.
 >
 > Which part of "this is the way it's supposed to work?" don't you
 > understand?

Which part of "hard wired to the same interrupt" are you having trouble
with? It's _supposed_ to work by assigning interrupts independently as
needed. If two slots are hard-wired to the same interrupt then that
capability is defeated.

 > There's no problems with sharing interrupts. For chrissakes, they're
 > MEANT BT DESIGN to be shared!

And that design is itself a kluge intended to make up for the fact that
there are not enough interrupts available in the original PC
architecture to accomodate the number of devices that can be installed.

 > Do you happen to own one of those nifty
 > combined firewire/usb2 expansion cards by any chance? Believe it or
 > not, but those things ACTUALLY WORK, despite being as you say,
 > "high-traffic devices", and neccessarily sharing the same interrupt.

Those boards are single devices intended to work from the same
interrupt, they are not independent devices designed by independent
teams for independent purposes. And how much traffic they can actually
handle is debatable.

 > I
 > happen to own one of them, and I can attest that indeed, there are no
 > issues.

So let's see, now, you can perform a sustained transfer from the USB
side to the Firewire side and vice versa at the maximum speed allowed by
the standards with no trouble? So what devices do you have attached
that can provide data at those rates?

 > Sorry, but you simply fail to produce a convincing argument for your
 > case. Facts and reality speak against you.

Believe what you want to. But don't come crying to me when reality
bites you in the ass.

 > IRQ sharing isn't a problem in the PCI world. Not saying it works
 > flawlessly 100% of the time because virtually nothing about the PC
 > does, but that's not the same as it is a significant source of
 > trouble.

That's the point, it _doesn't_ work flawlessly 100% of the time even
when devices are not inserted in slots that force them to use the same
interrupt.

 > Mostly people who spout this 'sharing is evil' nonsense are
 > still perpetuating stuff that was relevant back in the old ISA days.
 > Not so anymore.

Depends.

 > You think the chipset and mobo makers are stupid or something, that
 > they put in support for six or even seven PCI busmasters/slots if it
 > wasn't possible to actually use them all without running into trouble?

It takes two to tango--even if the chipset design is perfect, that does
not mean that the six or seven PCI boards plugged into those slots are
all also perfect.

The designers of the chips and the designers of the motherboards make
the assumption that the people who are using them will be aware of their
limitations and will act accordingly rather than rashly assuming as you
seem determined to do that they can just plug things in willy-nilly and
have them work.

--
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: possible NV40 specs plus NV50 tidbits 

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:26:34 -0500, "J.Clarke" <jclarke RemoveThis @nospam.invalid>
wrote:

 >On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:59:19 GMT
 >"Lenny" <you RemoveThis @wish.haha> wrote:
 >
  >>
   >> > Er, the PCI slot next to the AGP is pretty useless anyway, since it
   >> > shares interrupts with the AGP slot.
  >>
  >> This is not true, both because they don't share on ALL mobos, and also
  >> because sharing is NO PROBLEM in modern systems.
 >
 >Lemme guess, you believe in the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny too.
 >
 >When he says it's shared, he means that it's hard wired to the same
 >interrupt--in other words if Windows dynamically reassigns the interrupt
 >for one it necessarily reassigns the interrupt for the other, which
 >_does_ cause problems if the devices in the two slots are both
 >high-traffic devices.
 >

Thanks to another John, I did not immediately have to come back
and state the obvious.............. Lenny must be a software-type
where all PC hardware-contention problems are magically resolved
by either a click of the keyboard or the M$$ OS takes care of it
automatically.....

For the properly-architectured Amiga, probably yes. For the
legacy-riddled PC, frequently no. Other examples are on-board
disk-controllers sharing interrupts with slot #3, and PCI slot #5
( if present ) sharing with another slot. Mostly OK if the traffic
volume can be shared AND the contending plug-ins/devices
all comply with PCI 2.1 spec; the latter compliance still being a
mine-field..........

Try putting a SBLive! (non 5.1) in PCI slot #1, with a video card
already in the adjacent AGP slot.

John Lewis


  >> If you have sharing
  >> issues, the hard/software in your system is faulty.
  >>
  >> I shared the IRQ on my vidcard with two other PCI devices (none in the
  >> 2nd slot) when I ran WinME, no issues whatsoever. On XP, I have FOUR
  >> devices sharing with vid-card. Again, no issues. CHeck your own box,
  >> chances are very good you'll have things sharing too. It's not an
  >> issue, that's the way the system is supposed to work.
 >
 >You will find under XP that all devices nominally share the same
 >interrupt. That does not mean that they all use the same
 >interrupt--windows will reassign interrupts as required by the workload
 >on the system.
  >>
   >> > This PCI slot is only safely
   >> > useful for something that requires no interrupts.
  >>
  >> There's almost no PCI devices that don't. PCI devices are almost
  >> exclusively I/O devices, and those almost exclusively use
  >> busmastering, which requires an interrupt.
  >>
  >> Besides, your statement is flat-out WRONG.
 >
 >Actually, yours is not exactly "flat-out WRONG" but demonstrative of a
 >lack of understanding of how Windows assigns interrupts and of a lack of
 >experience that would show you that sometimes automatic interrupt
 >reassignment and interrupt sharing do not work as well as advertised.
 >
 >--
 >--
 >--John
 >Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
 >(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: possible NV40 specs plus NV50 tidbits 

 > Lemme guess, you believe in the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny too.

Right. Nothing beats starting out a post discrediting the one you're
replying to. Smart move, I must remember that one if I find facts aren't on
my side for once.

 > When he says it's shared, he means that it's hard wired to the same
 > interrupt--in other words if Windows dynamically reassigns the interrupt
 > for one it necessarily reassigns the interrupt for the other, which
 > _does_ cause problems if the devices in the two slots are both
 > high-traffic devices.

Which part of "this is the way it's supposed to work?" don't you understand?

There's no problems with sharing interrupts. For chrissakes, they're MEANT
BT DESIGN to be shared! Do you happen to own one of those nifty combined
firewire/usb2 expansion cards by any chance? Believe it or not, but those
things ACTUALLY WORK, despite being as you say, "high-traffic devices", and
neccessarily sharing the same interrupt. I happen to own one of them, and I
can attest that indeed, there are no issues.

Sorry, but you simply fail to produce a convincing argument for your case.
Facts and reality speak against you.

IRQ sharing isn't a problem in the PCI world. Not saying it works flawlessly
100% of the time because virtually nothing about the PC does, but that's not
the same as it is a significant source of trouble. Mostly people who spout
this 'sharing is evil' nonsense are still perpetuating stuff that was
relevant back in the old ISA days. Not so anymore.

You think the chipset and mobo makers are stupid or something, that they put
in support for six or even seven PCI busmasters/slots if it wasn't possible
to actually use them all without running into trouble?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: possible NV40 specs plus NV50 tidbits