Opinions on Thermaltake PSUs please.

Phil Weldon wrote:
 > Well, if money is tight, you might want to stick with your current
 > power supply. These days the 3.3 volt line is used less. Memory has
 > its own DC/DC voltage convertor/regulator, the CPU has its own DC/DC
 > voltage convertor/regulator, the Graphics card does, drives don't use
 > 3.3 volts at all... that doesn't leave much that directly uses 3.3
 > volts. The newest specifications for 3.3 volts are =/- 5% (3.14 to
 > 3.46 volts), but how do you know what the 3.3 volt rail on your
 > current power supply is delivering? Did you use a digital voltmeter,
 > and measure at the connector to the motherboard? The readings given
 > by the monitoring chip/program combination are not particularly
 > precise, not really any good at all in the second decimal place. If
 > you are have no problems other than just that your monitoring program
 > shows 3.0 volts, it is something you can live with. (And if you ARE
 > having other problems, a new power supply may not cure them!

Hi Phil, thanks for the reply.

I don't have access to a multimeter/voltmeter so am unable to 'hard test'
the voltage. However, I have three of these boards, all bought at the same
time, with different PSUs, and the others read the 3.3v rail as fine. I've
used Soltek Hardware monitor and MBM5 to read the sensor and both agree.

The line fluctuates between <checks MBM5 high/low page> 2.93 and 3.12v for
this session. That's about typical of this combo since I built it. I tacked
onto a thread about PSUs in another group and asked about this and was told
that there is a chance of the low 3.3v causing accelerated aging of the
video card and/or mobo capacitors/components. As this system will have to
last me a while (I'm an invalid on a benefit) I thought that replacing the
PSU would be a wise move. I certainly can't afford to replace the video card
or the mobo anytime soon.

I'm not having any other problems, this system is stable as a rock. Prime95
for 24 hours. The vcore has fluctuated between 1.81v and 1.86v this
sesssion. I have it set to 1.825v in BIOS. When I bought this case it came
with the PSU and the vendor told me the PSU is crap and suggested replacing
it. I figured that it would do as a stop-gap measure and I'd get a better
one when I could. I was thinking that a new PSU may give me a more stable
vcore as well, allowing either a better OC or a lower vcore.

Cheers,
--
~misfit~

 > "~misfit~" <misfit61nz.RemoveThis@yahoomung.co.nz> wrote in message
 > news:3QO9c.3574$Tf3.57015@news.xtra.co.nz...
  >> I've gotta get a new PSU, my current no-name 400W is only outputting
  >> around
  >> 3.0v on the 3.3v rail.
  >>
  >> I can *just* swing the money for a Thermaltek 420W Active PFC PSU(
  >> TT420APD, W0008R ):
  >>
<font color=green>  >> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w00089.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w00089.htm</font</a>>
  >>
  >> It's $NZ126. Other than that, the only brands my prefered supplier
  >> carries are Hyena (350W for $4 or Task TK942TX-DF, 450W for $99.
  >> I've never heard of Task before, the guy reckons they are "pretty
  >> good" and are cheaper than Thermaltake.
  >>
  >> All I could find about Task PSU's that comes close to the model
  >> number he gave me is here:
  >>
<font color=green>  >> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.task.com.tw/ps-atx-dual.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.task.com.tw/ps-atx-dual.htm</font</a>>
  >>
  >> He told me the 450W is black and when I gave him that URL he said
  >> that looks like it. (Although the numbers don't match exactly).
  >>
  >> Anyone heard of Task? What do you regs think I should buy? Money is
  >> tight, this PSU will have to last me and do the job. I can't afford
  >> to make a mistake. He also has a Task 500W for $NZ122. I see the
  >> Task has a three year warranty, I don't know about the Thermaltake.
  >>
  >> I'm running a Soltek SL-75FRN2-L mobo with an XP1800+ at 2.1Ghz, a
  >> ti4200, 512MB RAM, one HDD and two optical drives. Plus a couple of
  >> case-fans. I may get a Barton and a gruntier graphics card as they
  >> come down in price, if finances allow.
  >>
  >> Thanks guys,
  >> --
  >> ~misfit~<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Opinions on Thermaltake PSUs please. 

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:52:03 +1200, "~misfit~" <misfit61nz.DeleteThis@yahoomung.co.nz>
wrote:

 >I've gotta get a new PSU, my current no-name 400W is only outputting around
 >3.0v on the 3.3v rail.
 >
 >I can *just* swing the money for a Thermaltek 420W Active PFC PSU( TT420APD,
 >W0008R ):
 >
 >http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w00089.htm
 >
 >It's $NZ126. Other than that, the only brands my prefered supplier carries
 >are Hyena (350W for $4 or Task TK942TX-DF, 450W for $99. I've never heard
 >of Task before, the guy reckons they are "pretty good" and are cheaper than
 >Thermaltake.
 >
 >All I could find about Task PSU's that comes close to the model number he
 >gave me is here:
 >
 >http://www.task.com.tw/ps-atx-dual.htm
 >
 >He told me the 450W is black and when I gave him that URL he said that looks
 >like it. (Although the numbers don't match exactly).
 >
 >Anyone heard of Task? What do you regs think I should buy? Money is tight,
 >this PSU will have to last me and do the job. I can't afford to make a
 >mistake. He also has a Task 500W for $NZ122. I see the Task has a three year
 >warranty, I don't know about the Thermaltake.
 >
 >I'm running a Soltek SL-75FRN2-L mobo with an XP1800+ at 2.1Ghz, a ti4200,
 >512MB RAM, one HDD and two optical drives. Plus a couple of case-fans. I may
 >get a Barton and a gruntier graphics card as they come down in price, if
 >finances allow.
 >
 >Thanks guys,



The Themaltake is a Badged Product, not made by them at all, have a look at
a Chieftec, same PSU but at a much lower price, well here it is.

Have seen 4 brands that are all the same make, I did have the URL of the firm
that makes them


The +12V Rating on these supplies is far to low, go for a Enermax has a far
highter +12V rating for the same Wattage..<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Opinions on Thermaltake PSUs please. 

~misfit~ wrote:
 > I've gotta get a new PSU, my current no-name 400W is only outputting
 > around
 > 3.0v on the 3.3v rail.
 >
 > I can *just* swing the money for a Thermaltek 420W Active PFC PSU(
 > TT420APD, W0008R ):
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w00089.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w00089.htm</font</a>>
 >
 > It's $NZ126. Other than that, the only brands my prefered supplier
 > carries are Hyena (350W for $4 or Task TK942TX-DF, 450W for $99.
 > I've never heard of Task before, the guy reckons they are "pretty
 > good" and are cheaper than Thermaltake.

Hyena has got a bad name in the past for a batch of 230W (I think) PSUs that
had the disturbing habit of blowing caps. However, I think their current
PSUs are fine. Hyena is the NZ name for FoxConn, who sells in the US as
Allied, and other places as completely different names (haven't managed to
figure them all out yet). Supposedly they made ~20million PSUs last year, so
they're not a back-of-the-garage company by any means. This is probably
actually the reason why there's so many people complaining: you don't need a
high failure rate on 20million PSUs the have a lot of annoyed people.

I've got their 500W PSU (circa $NZ125, ex GST) in my system and have
absolutely no complaints about it. In fact, pretty much everyone I know has
a Hyena power supply, and I haven't heard of any issues (except for an old
230W, possibly one of the dodgy ones, being accidentally plugged into a
power-hungry system). Mine is currently powering a dual XP2500 (@2100MHz)
system with a 9800XT (softmodded + OC'd 9800SE) with two HDDs and two
optical drives. Voltages perfectly stable, as is the computer as a whole.
Here's a few numbers, if you're into that sort of thing

H500 = Hyena 500W
T420 = Thermaltake 420W
K450 = Task 450W

Power output (Watts):

| H500 | T420 | K450 |
---------------+------+------+------+
3.3V | 92 | 99 | 92 |
5V | 260 | 200 | 160 |
12V | 240 | 216 | 288 |
3.3V, 12V | 260 | 220 | 240 |
3.3V, 5V, 12V | 472 | ? | 430 |
---------------+------+------+------/
(estimated 3.3V, 5V, 12V combined for Thermatake 390-400)

Ripple (peak-to-peak, mV):

| H500 | T420 | K450 |
---------------+------+------+------+
3.3V | 50 | 50 | ? |
5V | 50 | 50 | ? |
12V | 50 | 120 | ? |
---------------+------+------+------/

Regulator tolerance (+/-, percent):

| H500 | T420 | K450 |
---------------+------+------+------+
3.3V | 1 | 5 | ? |
5V | 1 | 5 | ? |
12V | 1 | 5 | ? |
---------------+------+------+------/

For my 500W Hyena supply, MBM reads the values (note: 5V and 12V read about
the same using an uncalibrated multimeter, so they're probably not too far
off) as:

| High | Avg | Low |
---------------+-------+-------+-------+
3.3V | 3.23 | 3.22 | 3.18 |
5V | 4.92 | 4.91 | 4.87 |
12V | 12.16 | 12.05 | 11.98 |
---------------+-------+-------+-------/

Percentage-from-ideal wise:

| High | Avg | Low |
---------------+-------+-------+-------+
3.3V | -2.12 | -2.42 | -3.64 |
5V | -1.60 | -1.80 | -2.60 |
12V | +1.33 | +0.42 | -0.17 |
---------------+-------+-------+-------/

The high->low differences are 1.52, 1.00, and 1.50, which fits in with the
1% tolerance values mentioned (assuming that the "off-center" values are
from uncalibrated motherboard sensors). These voltages are over a reasonable
period of time, which included both CPUs doing POVRay, a game of GTA3,
DesertCombat, and some programming (low CPU/GPU usage).

Also, a bit of a note is required on the PFC circuitry in the Thermaltake
unit. This has almost no effect on the efficiency or outputs of the supply,
but mainly reduces interference fed back to the power circuit (as in
household power circuit, not the PC one). Also, it (presumably) brings the
power factor closer to unity, which means if you run a huge number of PCs,
you'll be able to get a slightly cheaper rate out of your power supplier.


My main concern about the Hyena 500W is the light 12V line (240W). The 9800
cards draw from the 5V rail (where the Hyena has INSANE power available,
50A!), but if it was drawing from the 12V then I think I'd be pushing things
a little. The CPUs are ~75W under load, the 9800Pro ~50W, which leaves only
40W for the rest of the 12V and 3.3V devices (though heaps for 5V devices).

The Task 450 is a better in this regard, with a higher proportion allocated
to the 12V rail. However, there are no statistics for the regulator
tolerances, or the ripple, which makes me slightly wary of the stability of
the voltages. The Thermaltake unit is more tipped to the 5V rail, though not
severely. Another thing is that there is exactly zero information on the web
about Task. I spent quite a while searching, and I can't even find a place
that sells them, let alone a review. This is not to say that they are bad,
but there's very little information out there to go on.

That said, out of the three you mentioned (Task 450, Hyena 350, Thermaltake
420) it's a hard choice. If Task had been a bit more visible, I'd have said
go for the Task 450. More and more things are piling onto the 12V rail
(higher efficiency for DC-DC converters), so the extra headroom on there
will serve you well for future upgrades. The Thermaltake 420 should be a
good power supply and last well, though the weak 12V line could put a damper
on future upgrades. For example, a Prescott will suck in the order of
120-140W from the 12V rail, which will heavily restrict the number of
optical devices, fans, etc that you can hang off the PSU. The second
downside is that it is relatively expensive, compared the the other units.
The Hyena 350W would probably work, but whether it gives a better supply
than your current 400W generic is debatable. For this reason, I can't really
recommend you go for it.

Likewise, I wouldn't really recommend you go for the Hyena 500W. It will
only give you a bit more 12V/12&3.3 combined, and the 5V rail isn't really
used enough nowadays to warrant such a huge rating on it. I bought it
because it gave me the best 12V rail in my price range, was quiet, and
seemed to get quite positive reviews on many sites. The insane 5V rail (and
low 12V ripple, though this is possibly a mistake) and good combined
wattages were nice added features, too.

So, what do I recommend? Well, first I'd say get a list of all the PSUs your
guy has, and dig up the specs on them. Do a bit of power-per-buck, focussing
particularily on the 12V rails (though make sure you have enough on the 5V,
3.3V and combined rails too). Do a search on the 'net for reviews and the
like, and then make a decision. Easy, eh

[...]

--
Michael Brown
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.emboss.co.nz" target="_blank">www.emboss.co.nz</a> : OOS/RSI software and more
Add michael@ to emboss.co.nz - My inbox is always open<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Opinions on Thermaltake PSUs please. 

Woger MKII @wogerbox.co.nz wrote:
 > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:52:03 +1200, "~misfit~"
 > <misfit61nz.TakeThisOut@yahoomung.co.nz> wrote:
 >
  >> I've gotta get a new PSU, my current no-name 400W is only outputting
  >> around
  >> 3.0v on the 3.3v rail.
  >>
  >> I can *just* swing the money for a Thermaltek 420W Active PFC PSU(
  >> TT420APD, W0008R ):
  >>
<font color=green>  >> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w00089.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w00089.htm</font</a>>
  >>
  >> It's $NZ126. Other than that, the only brands my prefered supplier
  >> carries are Hyena (350W for $4 or Task TK942TX-DF, 450W for $99.
  >> I've never heard of Task before, the guy reckons they are "pretty
  >> good" and are cheaper than Thermaltake.
  >>
  >> All I could find about Task PSU's that comes close to the model
  >> number he gave me is here:
  >>
<font color=green>  >> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.task.com.tw/ps-atx-dual.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.task.com.tw/ps-atx-dual.htm</font</a>>
  >>
  >> He told me the 450W is black and when I gave him that URL he said
  >> that looks like it. (Although the numbers don't match exactly).
  >>
  >> Anyone heard of Task? What do you regs think I should buy? Money is
  >> tight, this PSU will have to last me and do the job. I can't afford
  >> to make a mistake. He also has a Task 500W for $NZ122. I see the
  >> Task has a three year warranty, I don't know about the Thermaltake.
  >>
  >> I'm running a Soltek SL-75FRN2-L mobo with an XP1800+ at 2.1Ghz, a
  >> ti4200, 512MB RAM, one HDD and two optical drives. Plus a couple of
  >> case-fans. I may get a Barton and a gruntier graphics card as they
  >> come down in price, if finances allow.
  >>
  >> Thanks guys,
 >
 >
 >
 > The Themaltake is a Badged Product, not made by them at all, have a
 > look at a Chieftec, same PSU but at a much lower price, well here
 > it is.
 >
 > Have seen 4 brands that are all the same make, I did have the URL of
 > the firm that makes them
 >
 >
 > The +12V Rating on these supplies is far to low, go for a Enermax
 > has a far highter +12V rating for the same Wattage..

I had an Enermax once running a 1ghz PIII, I blew it, the mobo and a
different CPU up when I was testing the CPU. It was a good PSU. However, I
can't find one locally and I don't mail-order. Likewise haven't seen
chieftec in NZ.

Thanks.
--
~misfit~<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Opinions on Thermaltake PSUs please. 

I can't think of any reason that a somewhat low 3.3 volt rail "causing
accelerated aging of the
video card and/or mobo capacitors/components." If the 3.3 volts is
converted/regulated with an on-motherboard DC/DC unit, then the 3.0 volt
means that ~ 10% more current would be required and perhaps ripple would be
higher. How long have you been operating the present system? And how much
longer do you expect to keep it? Also, have you tried swapping power
supplies between two of your systems?

As for the monitoring readouts, the conversion the PROGRAM does is very
simple, and not a source of error... it is the very simple nature of the
analog to digital conversion in the monitoring chip that makes the digits to
the right of the decimal point less meaningful than they appear.
--
Phil Weldon, pweldonatmindjumpdotcom
For communication,
replace "at" with the 'at sign'
replace "mindjump" with "mindspring."
replace "dot" with "."

"~misfit~" <misfit61nz RemoveThis @yahoomung.co.nz> wrote in message
news:kNQ9c.3677$Tf3.58975@news.xtra.co.nz...
 > Phil Weldon wrote:
  > > Well, if money is tight, you might want to stick with your current
  > > power supply. These days the 3.3 volt line is used less. Memory has
  > > its own DC/DC voltage convertor/regulator, the CPU has its own DC/DC
  > > voltage convertor/regulator, the Graphics card does, drives don't use
  > > 3.3 volts at all... that doesn't leave much that directly uses 3.3
  > > volts. The newest specifications for 3.3 volts are =/- 5% (3.14 to
  > > 3.46 volts), but how do you know what the 3.3 volt rail on your
  > > current power supply is delivering? Did you use a digital voltmeter,
  > > and measure at the connector to the motherboard? The readings given
  > > by the monitoring chip/program combination are not particularly
  > > precise, not really any good at all in the second decimal place. If
  > > you are have no problems other than just that your monitoring program
  > > shows 3.0 volts, it is something you can live with. (And if you ARE
  > > having other problems, a new power supply may not cure them!
 >
 > Hi Phil, thanks for the reply.
 >
 > I don't have access to a multimeter/voltmeter so am unable to 'hard test'
 > the voltage. However, I have three of these boards, all bought at the same
 > time, with different PSUs, and the others read the 3.3v rail as fine. I've
 > used Soltek Hardware monitor and MBM5 to read the sensor and both agree.
 >
 > The line fluctuates between <checks MBM5 high/low page> 2.93 and 3.12v for
 > this session. That's about typical of this combo since I built it. I
tacked
 > onto a thread about PSUs in another group and asked about this and was
told
 > that there is a chance of the low 3.3v causing accelerated aging of the
 > video card and/or mobo capacitors/components. As this system will have to
 > last me a while (I'm an invalid on a benefit) I thought that replacing the
 > PSU would be a wise move. I certainly can't afford to replace the video
card
 > or the mobo anytime soon.
 >
 > I'm not having any other problems, this system is stable as a rock.
Prime95
 > for 24 hours. The vcore has fluctuated between 1.81v and 1.86v this
 > sesssion. I have it set to 1.825v in BIOS. When I bought this case it came
 > with the PSU and the vendor told me the PSU is crap and suggested
replacing
 > it. I figured that it would do as a stop-gap measure and I'd get a better
 > one when I could. I was thinking that a new PSU may give me a more stable
 > vcore as well, allowing either a better OC or a lower vcore.
 >
 > Cheers,
 > --
 > ~misfit~
 >
  > > "~misfit~" <misfit61nz RemoveThis @yahoomung.co.nz> wrote in message
  > > news:3QO9c.3574$Tf3.57015@news.xtra.co.nz...
   > >> I've gotta get a new PSU, my current no-name 400W is only outputting
   > >> around
   > >> 3.0v on the 3.3v rail.
   > >>
   > >> I can *just* swing the money for a Thermaltek 420W Active PFC PSU(
   > >> TT420APD, W0008R ):
   > >>
<font color=brown>   > >> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w00089.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w00089.htm</font</a>>
   > >>
   > >> It's $NZ126. Other than that, the only brands my prefered supplier
   > >> carries are Hyena (350W for $4 or Task TK942TX-DF, 450W for $99.
   > >> I've never heard of Task before, the guy reckons they are "pretty
   > >> good" and are cheaper than Thermaltake.
   > >>
   > >> All I could find about Task PSU's that comes close to the model
   > >> number he gave me is here:
   > >>
<font color=brown>   > >> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.task.com.tw/ps-atx-dual.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.task.com.tw/ps-atx-dual.htm</font</a>>
   > >>
   > >> He told me the 450W is black and when I gave him that URL he said
   > >> that looks like it. (Although the numbers don't match exactly).
   > >>
   > >> Anyone heard of Task? What do you regs think I should buy? Money is
   > >> tight, this PSU will have to last me and do the job. I can't afford
   > >> to make a mistake. He also has a Task 500W for $NZ122. I see the
   > >> Task has a three year warranty, I don't know about the Thermaltake.
   > >>
   > >> I'm running a Soltek SL-75FRN2-L mobo with an XP1800+ at 2.1Ghz, a
   > >> ti4200, 512MB RAM, one HDD and two optical drives. Plus a couple of
   > >> case-fans. I may get a Barton and a gruntier graphics card as they
   > >> come down in price, if finances allow.
   > >>
   > >> Thanks guys,
   > >> --
   > >> ~misfit~
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Opinions on Thermaltake PSUs please. 

Michael Brown wrote:
 > ~misfit~ wrote:
  >> I've gotta get a new PSU, my current no-name 400W is only outputting
  >> around
  >> 3.0v on the 3.3v rail.
  >>
  >> I can *just* swing the money for a Thermaltek 420W Active PFC PSU(
  >> TT420APD, W0008R ):
  >>
<font color=green>  >> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w00089.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w00089.htm</font</a>>
  >>
  >> It's $NZ126. Other than that, the only brands my prefered supplier
  >> carries are Hyena (350W for $4 or Task TK942TX-DF, 450W for $99.
  >> I've never heard of Task before, the guy reckons they are "pretty
  >> good" and are cheaper than Thermaltake.

Hi Michael, I've seen you posting around and about and noticed you were from
NZ. Thanks for replying.

 > Hyena has got a bad name in the past for a batch of 230W (I think)
 > PSUs that had the disturbing habit of blowing caps. However, I think
 > their current PSUs are fine. Hyena is the NZ name for FoxConn, who
 > sells in the US as Allied, and other places as completely different
 > names (haven't managed to figure them all out yet). Supposedly they
 > made ~20million PSUs last year, so they're not a back-of-the-garage
 > company by any means. This is probably actually the reason why
 > there's so many people complaining: you don't need a high failure
 > rate on 20million PSUs the have a lot of annoyed people.
 >
 > I've got their 500W PSU (circa $NZ125, ex GST) in my system and have
 > absolutely no complaints about it. In fact, pretty much everyone I
 > know has a Hyena power supply, and I haven't heard of any issues
 > (except for an old 230W, possibly one of the dodgy ones, being
 > accidentally plugged into a power-hungry system). Mine is currently
 > powering a dual XP2500 (@2100MHz) system with a 9800XT (softmodded +
 > OC'd 9800SE) with two HDDs and two optical drives. Voltages perfectly
 > stable, as is the computer as a whole. Here's a few numbers, if
 > you're into that sort of thing
 >
 > H500 = Hyena 500W
 > T420 = Thermaltake 420W
 > K450 = Task 450W
 >
 > Power output (Watts):
 >
 > | H500 | T420 | K450 |
 > ---------------+------+------+------+
 > 3.3V | 92 | 99 | 92 |
 > 5V | 260 | 200 | 160 |
 > 12V | 240 | 216 | 288 |
 > 3.3V, 12V | 260 | 220 | 240 |
 > 3.3V, 5V, 12V | 472 | ? | 430 |
 > ---------------+------+------+------/
 > (estimated 3.3V, 5V, 12V combined for Thermatake 390-400)
 >
 > Ripple (peak-to-peak, mV):
 >
 > | H500 | T420 | K450 |
 > ---------------+------+------+------+
 > 3.3V | 50 | 50 | ? |
 > 5V | 50 | 50 | ? |
 > 12V | 50 | 120 | ? |
 > ---------------+------+------+------/
 >
 > Regulator tolerance (+/-, percent):
 >
 > | H500 | T420 | K450 |
 > ---------------+------+------+------+
 > 3.3V | 1 | 5 | ? |
 > 5V | 1 | 5 | ? |
 > 12V | 1 | 5 | ? |
 > ---------------+------+------+------/
 >
 > For my 500W Hyena supply, MBM reads the values (note: 5V and 12V read
 > about the same using an uncalibrated multimeter, so they're probably
 > not too far off) as:
 >
 > | High | Avg | Low |
 > ---------------+-------+-------+-------+
 > 3.3V | 3.23 | 3.22 | 3.18 |
 > 5V | 4.92 | 4.91 | 4.87 |
 > 12V | 12.16 | 12.05 | 11.98 |
 > ---------------+-------+-------+-------/
 >
 > Percentage-from-ideal wise:
 >
 > | High | Avg | Low |
 > ---------------+-------+-------+-------+
 > 3.3V | -2.12 | -2.42 | -3.64 |
 > 5V | -1.60 | -1.80 | -2.60 |
 > 12V | +1.33 | +0.42 | -0.17 |
 > ---------------+-------+-------+-------/
 >
 > The high->low differences are 1.52, 1.00, and 1.50, which fits in
 > with the 1% tolerance values mentioned (assuming that the
 > "off-center" values are from uncalibrated motherboard sensors). These
 > voltages are over a reasonable period of time, which included both
 > CPUs doing POVRay, a game of GTA3, DesertCombat, and some programming
 > (low CPU/GPU usage).
 >
 > Also, a bit of a note is required on the PFC circuitry in the
 > Thermaltake unit. This has almost no effect on the efficiency or
 > outputs of the supply, but mainly reduces interference fed back to
 > the power circuit (as in household power circuit, not the PC one).
 > Also, it (presumably) brings the power factor closer to unity, which
 > means if you run a huge number of PCs, you'll be able to get a
 > slightly cheaper rate out of your power supplier.
 >
 >
 > My main concern about the Hyena 500W is the light 12V line (240W).
 > The 9800 cards draw from the 5V rail (where the Hyena has INSANE
 > power available, 50A!), but if it was drawing from the 12V then I
 > think I'd be pushing things a little. The CPUs are ~75W under load,
 > the 9800Pro ~50W, which leaves only 40W for the rest of the 12V and
 > 3.3V devices (though heaps for 5V devices).
 >
 > The Task 450 is a better in this regard, with a higher proportion
 > allocated to the 12V rail. However, there are no statistics for the
 > regulator tolerances, or the ripple, which makes me slightly wary of
 > the stability of the voltages. The Thermaltake unit is more tipped to
 > the 5V rail, though not severely. Another thing is that there is
 > exactly zero information on the web about Task. I spent quite a while
 > searching, and I can't even find a place that sells them, let alone a
 > review. This is not to say that they are bad, but there's very little
 > information out there to go on.

I usually deal with OEM Computers in Manukau, or sometimes E-One, they don't
either of them have a great range of PSUs.

I got two hits searching Task PSU with google (amongst a lot of unrelated
crap) one was the site I gave above and one was an Aussie place selling
them. Seems strange that there isn't more info available.

 > That said, out of the three you mentioned (Task 450, Hyena 350,
 > Thermaltake 420) it's a hard choice. If Task had been a bit more
 > visible, I'd have said go for the Task 450. More and more things are
 > piling onto the 12V rail (higher efficiency for DC-DC converters), so
 > the extra headroom on there will serve you well for future upgrades.
 > The Thermaltake 420 should be a good power supply and last well,
 > though the weak 12V line could put a damper on future upgrades. For
 > example, a Prescott will suck in the order of 120-140W from the 12V
 > rail, which will heavily restrict the number of optical devices,
 > fans, etc that you can hang off the PSU. The second downside is that
 > it is relatively expensive, compared the the other units. The Hyena
 > 350W would probably work, but whether it gives a better supply than
 > your current 400W generic is debatable. For this reason, I can't
 > really recommend you go for it.
 >
 > Likewise, I wouldn't really recommend you go for the Hyena 500W. It
 > will only give you a bit more 12V/12&3.3 combined, and the 5V rail
 > isn't really used enough nowadays to warrant such a huge rating on
 > it. I bought it because it gave me the best 12V rail in my price
 > range, was quiet, and seemed to get quite positive reviews on many
 > sites. The insane 5V rail (and low 12V ripple, though this is
 > possibly a mistake) and good combined wattages were nice added
 > features, too.
 >
 > So, what do I recommend? Well, first I'd say get a list of all the
 > PSUs your guy has, and dig up the specs on them. Do a bit of
 > power-per-buck, focussing particularily on the 12V rails (though make
 > sure you have enough on the 5V,
 > 3.3V and combined rails too). Do a search on the 'net for reviews and
 > the like, and then make a decision. Easy, eh

Thanks for the detailed post, I appreciate it and the time it took you. I'm
not totally tied in to OEM computers and I wouldn't mind an Enermax PSU if I
could find one relatively local to me. (I'm in Pukekohe, Sth. Auckland) I
don't suppose you'd know of a supplier who would have a good selection
around here? E-One have a 500W Hyena, aluminium case PSU for $99 + GST or a
hyena 350, that's all.

QMB in Mt Roskill have an AcBel 400W (High Quality <Their words>) unit for
$69 + GST, there's a bit of info here:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.acbel.com/" target="_blank">http://www.acbel.com/</a>

And a bit at the bottom of this page:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.idgnet.co.nz/PCWorld/PCW.nsf/0/305F25C8CE2173CECC256E450076E4EB?O" target="_blank">http://www.idgnet.co.nz/PCWorld/PCW.nsf/0/305F25C8CE2173CECC256E450076E4EB?O</a>
penDocument

They say it cost "just $118" so that could be a good buy from QMB for $78
inc. They say it's quiet but that doesn't concern me much, my PC is fairly
noisy, the PSU isn't going to make much difference. In fact I'd rather have
a PSU fan sucking as much heat out of the case as possible.

After Googling it I found heaps of hits for NZ retailers selling it, and a
review in German:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.caseumbau.de/index.php?page=test196/test196" target="_blank">http://www.caseumbau.de/index.php?page=test196/test196</a>

I don't read German but it looks good to me, especially the second page
where they show what looks like an MBM5 high/low page that shows remarkably
stable voltages other than the 5v being a bit low. This could be the PSU for
me, I saw a few references when Googling it where it is being used in new
Opteron builds.

No specs for 3.3v, 5v and 12v wattages respectively though.

Arghhh! Just went back to QMB's page and see it's listed as "On order". I'll
check later in the week and maybe give them a call. What do you think?

Cheers,
--
~misfit~<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Opinions on Thermaltake PSUs please. 

Phil Weldon wrote:
 > I can't think of any reason that a somewhat low 3.3 volt rail "causing
 > accelerated aging of the
 > video card and/or mobo capacitors/components." If the 3.3 volts is
 > converted/regulated with an on-motherboard DC/DC unit, then the 3.0
 > volt means that ~ 10% more current would be required and perhaps
 > ripple would be higher.

Ok. So what are you saying? That the 3.3v rail being near 3.0v isn't going
to cause problems? It's 10% out, and goes as far as 12% at times. I was
always lead to believe that the rails should be within +/- 5%.

 > How long have you been operating the present
 > system?

Six months. I've had the CPU for over a year.

 > And how much longer do you expect to keep it?

Two more years probably as my primary system, maybe more. Then I'll go
64-bit and it'll go down the food-chain so to speak, I have older machines
here on my LAN, for internet connection/gateway/fileservers/mp3
players/friends visiting playing LAN games. I'll probably own it for 10
years if it continues to work that long. It's a very capable machine. That's
why I don't want to stress it now. (I don't know if I mentioned, I'm poor)

 > Also, have
 > you tried swapping power supplies between two of your systems?

No. The only other system in the house with a PSU that has the 12v square
mobo connector belongs to the missus and she's not keen on it being played
with. The other systems are Coppermines etc.

Cheers,
--
~misfit~<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Opinions on Thermaltake PSUs please. 

~misfit~ wrote:

 > Phil Weldon wrote:
 >
  >>I can't think of any reason that a somewhat low 3.3 volt rail "causing
  >>accelerated aging of the
  >>video card and/or mobo capacitors/components." If the 3.3 volts is
  >>converted/regulated with an on-motherboard DC/DC unit, then the 3.0
  >>volt means that ~ 10% more current would be required and perhaps
  >>ripple would be higher.
 >
 >
 > Ok. So what are you saying? That the 3.3v rail being near 3.0v isn't going
 > to cause problems? It's 10% out, and goes as far as 12% at times. I was
 > always lead to believe that the rails should be within +/- 5%.

No, I think he's simply saying that it shouldn't cause the claimed
'accelerated aging'; not that it's 'proper'.

What's confusing is 'why' is it reading 3.0? It certainly isn't
'overloaded' and if it was due to the 12 volt rail being overloaded one
would expect the 12 volt to read significantly low as well. Further, the
PSU normally regulates off the 3.3 volt, even to having a separate sense
line from the PSU to the mobo connector so that it will be 3.3v 'right there'.

That's why some are questioning the reliability of the measurement itself.

Could be some that something is simply going bad, of course.

Try unplugging the mobo connector and reinserting it (thinking of a poor or
dirty connection). See if the readings are the same after that.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Opinions on Thermaltake PSUs please. 

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:44:49 +1200, "~misfit~" <misfit61nz.DeleteThis@yahoomung.co.nz>
wrote:

 >Phil Weldon wrote:
  >> I can't think of any reason that a somewhat low 3.3 volt rail "causing
  >> accelerated aging of the
  >> video card and/or mobo capacitors/components." If the 3.3 volts is
  >> converted/regulated with an on-motherboard DC/DC unit, then the 3.0
  >> volt means that ~ 10% more current would be required and perhaps
  >> ripple would be higher.
 >
 >Ok. So what are you saying? That the 3.3v rail being near 3.0v isn't going
 >to cause problems? It's 10% out, and goes as far as 12% at times. I was
 >always lead to believe that the rails should be within +/- 5%.




No its +/- 4% as per the ATX 1.3 Specs.

  >> How long have you been operating the present
  >> system?
 >
 >Six months. I've had the CPU for over a year.
 >
  >> And how much longer do you expect to keep it?
 >
 >Two more years probably as my primary system, maybe more. Then I'll go
 >64-bit and it'll go down the food-chain so to speak, I have older machines
 >here on my LAN, for internet connection/gateway/fileservers/mp3
 >players/friends visiting playing LAN games. I'll probably own it for 10
 >years if it continues to work that long. It's a very capable machine. That's
 >why I don't want to stress it now. (I don't know if I mentioned, I'm poor)
 >
  >> Also, have
  >> you tried swapping power supplies between two of your systems?
 >
 >No. The only other system in the house with a PSU that has the 12v square
 >mobo connector belongs to the missus and she's not keen on it being played
 >with. The other systems are Coppermines etc.
 >
 >Cheers,<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Opinions on Thermaltake PSUs please. 

I've been really happy with my two 420W Thermaltake's, had them for a year
now. They are very quiet and I haven't had any power related issues with
them.

"~misfit~" <misfit61nz.DeleteThis@yahoomung.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3QO9c.3574$Tf3.57015@news.xtra.co.nz...
 > I've gotta get a new PSU, my current no-name 400W is only outputting
around
 > 3.0v on the 3.3v rail.
 >
 > I can *just* swing the money for a Thermaltek 420W Active PFC PSU(
TT420APD,
 > W0008R ):
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w00089.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w00089.htm</font</a>>
 >
 > It's $NZ126. Other than that, the only brands my prefered supplier carries
 > are Hyena (350W for $4 or Task TK942TX-DF, 450W for $99. I've never
heard
 > of Task before, the guy reckons they are "pretty good" and are cheaper
than
 > Thermaltake.
 >
 > All I could find about Task PSU's that comes close to the model number he
 > gave me is here:
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.task.com.tw/ps-atx-dual.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.task.com.tw/ps-atx-dual.htm</font</a>>
 >
 > He told me the 450W is black and when I gave him that URL he said that
looks
 > like it. (Although the numbers don't match exactly).
 >
 > Anyone heard of Task? What do you regs think I should buy? Money is tight,
 > this PSU will have to last me and do the job. I can't afford to make a
 > mistake. He also has a Task 500W for $NZ122. I see the Task has a three
year
 > warranty, I don't know about the Thermaltake.
 >
 > I'm running a Soltek SL-75FRN2-L mobo with an XP1800+ at 2.1Ghz, a ti4200,
 > 512MB RAM, one HDD and two optical drives. Plus a couple of case-fans. I
may
 > get a Barton and a gruntier graphics card as they come down in price, if
 > finances allow.
 >
 > Thanks guys,
 > --
 > ~misfit~
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Opinions on Thermaltake PSUs please.