Physical hard drive failure.

phillip.thurmond.TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:

> I have a no-name (Platinum) 160GB 7200RPM hard drive that has had some
> sort of physical failure. The bios sees it, but any reads from the
> drive result in errors or time out. I have tried many hard drive tools
> to try to recover the data, but all point to a physical failure. The
> drive is not making the normal 'clicking' sound, but I can hear a
> repetitive sound as if it's trying, and failing, to access the same
> spot.

That's recalibration--it's either dealing with a marginal sector that is not
quite to the point of being marked bad or something has gone wrong in the
read circuitry so that all attempts at reads give the appearance to the
firmware of being reads of bad sectors.

> In the past, I've always just RMA'd drives that had physical
> failures if they were under warranty, or trashed them otherwise. This
> time, I would like to try and see if I can fix the drive myself. The
> data on there is not super important, but I would like to recover it if
> possible. I'm willing to try anything to fix the drive, including
> opening it, since it is no longer under warranty.
>
> So, I guess my questions are:
> 1) Has anyone here ever fixed a drive with a physical problem?

It's been done.

> 2) Any guesses as to what component on the drive has most likely
> failed?

The platter is most likely. If so you don't have a prayer of fixing it--the
only possible repair is to read everything _else_ off of it, and if the
sector the drive is trying to read is one that the drive needs in order to
start then you're going to have to rewrite the firmware to not need that
sector, which is for an individual whose understanding of disks is such
that he has to ask questions here going to be a huge undertaking.

It _may_ be that you have lucked out and it's an electronics problem, in
which case replacing the circuit board with one from an identical drive
might fix the problem.

> 3) Any websites detailing the steps to fix a physical hard drive
> problem? (Google has been no help so far)

Not really.

> 4) I know I could probably take this to some place and pay them
> thousands of dollars to recover the data on it. So I'm wondering what
> approach they take and if any of their techniques can be done at home
> without expensive equipment.

The only thing you can try that's not going to be expensive would be to swap
out the controller, and don't bet on that working.

Note that some of the recovery services now have reasonably low cost
recovery available if you're willing to sit at the bottom of the priority
queue for however long it takes.

> 5) Any other suggested groups to crosspost to?
>
> Thanks.
>
> --Phillip

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
 >> Stay informed about: Physical hard drive failure. 

Generally data recovery companies replace the drive's board first, then
the preamp board inside the HDA. If that doesn't help, they may check
if a head needs to and can be replaced. The last step is taking the
drive apart, putting each platter on a spin stand (like a turntable)
and reading the analog data with a high performance head and converting
the flux changes into user data with software. This can generally
recover anything that's not physically erased or damaged but takes a
lot of time.

Your drive clearly has problems reading data since you hear it
retrying, but you won't be able to do anything about it (except maybe
trying various temperatures.) If it was easy data recovery wouldn't be
so expensive. Don't waste your time. An open drive makes a nice paper
weight or bookend.
 >> Stay informed about: Physical hard drive failure. 

"RPR" <rohbeck RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1122931870.433597.66940@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com
> Generally data recovery companies replace the drive's board first, then
> the preamp board inside the HDA. If that doesn't help, they may check
> if a head needs to and can be replaced. The last step is taking the
> drive apart, putting each platter on a spin stand (like a turntable)
> and reading the analog data with a high performance head and converting
> the flux changes into user data with software. This can generally
> recover anything that's not physically erased or damaged but takes a
> lot of time.
>
> Your drive clearly has problems reading data since you hear it
> retrying, but you won't be able to do anything about it

What exactly did you not understand in "It's recognized by BIOS".

> (except maybe trying various temperatures.)
> If it was easy data recovery wouldn't be so expensive.
> Don't waste your time. An open drive makes a nice paper
> weight or bookend.
 >> Stay informed about: Physical hard drive failure. 

RPR wrote:
> Generally data recovery companies replace the drive's board first, then
> the preamp board inside the HDA. If that doesn't help, they may check
> if a head needs to and can be replaced. The last step is taking the
> drive apart, putting each platter on a spin stand (like a turntable)
> and reading the analog data with a high performance head and converting
> the flux changes into user data with software. This can generally
> recover anything that's not physically erased or damaged but takes a
> lot of time.

The technology you described does not exist, no data recovery company
or intelligence/law enforcement agency recovers data by reading analog
data off platters on a spin stand.
 >> Stay informed about: Physical hard drive failure. 

lazinator wrote:

>
> RPR wrote:
>> Generally data recovery companies replace the drive's board first, then
>> the preamp board inside the HDA. If that doesn't help, they may check
>> if a head needs to and can be replaced. The last step is taking the
>> drive apart, putting each platter on a spin stand (like a turntable)
>> and reading the analog data with a high performance head and converting
>> the flux changes into user data with software. This can generally
>> recover anything that's not physically erased or damaged but takes a
>> lot of time.
>
> The technology you described does not exist, no data recovery company
> or intelligence/law enforcement agency recovers data by reading analog
> data off platters on a spin stand.

And of course you are privy to the internal workings of every law
enforcement and intelligence agency in the world.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
 >> Stay informed about: Physical hard drive failure. 

Previously lazinator <laslo RemoveThis @actionfront.com> wrote:

> RPR wrote:
>> Generally data recovery companies replace the drive's board first, then
>> the preamp board inside the HDA. If that doesn't help, they may check
>> if a head needs to and can be replaced. The last step is taking the
>> drive apart, putting each platter on a spin stand (like a turntable)
>> and reading the analog data with a high performance head and converting
>> the flux changes into user data with software. This can generally
>> recover anything that's not physically erased or damaged but takes a
>> lot of time.

> The technology you described does not exist, no data recovery company
> or intelligence/law enforcement agency recovers data by reading analog
> data off platters on a spin stand.

HDDs have long since switched to analog reading and decoding, so there
is no advantage left in doing so. With classical digital decoding
doing maximum likelyhood decoding would gain you some signal
improvement (1.5dB better S/N ratio, if I remember my coding theory
course correctly). Not anymore.

Arno
 >> Stay informed about: Physical hard drive failure. 

Arno Wagner wrote:

> Previously lazinator <laslo RemoveThis @actionfront.com> wrote:
>
>> RPR wrote:
>>> Generally data recovery companies replace the drive's board first, then
>>> the preamp board inside the HDA. If that doesn't help, they may check
>>> if a head needs to and can be replaced. The last step is taking the
>>> drive apart, putting each platter on a spin stand (like a turntable)
>>> and reading the analog data with a high performance head and converting
>>> the flux changes into user data with software. This can generally
>>> recover anything that's not physically erased or damaged but takes a
>>> lot of time.
>
>> The technology you described does not exist, no data recovery company
>> or intelligence/law enforcement agency recovers data by reading analog
>> data off platters on a spin stand.
>
> HDDs have long since switched to analog reading and decoding, so there
> is no advantage left in doing so. With classical digital decoding
> doing maximum likelyhood decoding would gain you some signal
> improvement (1.5dB better S/N ratio, if I remember my coding theory
> course correctly). Not anymore.

????? Disks have always used analog signalling for data storage. One
frequency it's a one, the other it's a zero.
>
> Arno

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
 >> Stay informed about: Physical hard drive failure. 

"J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet.TakeThisOut@snet.net.invalid> wrote in message news:dcudne0fl3@news3.newsguy.com...
> Arno Wagner wrote:
>
> > Previously lazinator <laslo.TakeThisOut@actionfront.com> wrote:
> >
> >> RPR wrote:
> >>> Generally data recovery companies replace the drive's board first, then
> >>> the preamp board inside the HDA. If that doesn't help, they may check
> >>> if a head needs to and can be replaced. The last step is taking the
> >>> drive apart, putting each platter on a spin stand (like a turntable)
> >>> and reading the analog data with a high performance head and converting
> >>> the flux changes into user data with software. This can generally
> >>> recover anything that's not physically erased or damaged but takes a
> >>> lot of time.
> >
I've heard this before from others.

> >> The technology you described does not exist, no data recovery company
> >> or intelligence/law enforcement agency recovers data by reading analog
> >> data off platters on a spin stand.
> >
How would you know?

> > HDDs have long since switched to analog reading and decoding, so there
> > is no advantage left in doing so. With classical digital decoding
> > doing maximum likelyhood decoding would gain you some signal
> > improvement (1.5dB better S/N ratio, if I remember my coding theory
> > course correctly). Not anymore.
>
I assume you are talking about PRML.

> ????? Disks have always used analog signalling for data storage. One
> frequency it's a one, the other it's a zero.
> >
Long ago FM/MFM worked like that. RLL uses single flux changes.
 >> Stay informed about: Physical hard drive failure. 

Previously J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet.TakeThisOut@snet.net.invalid> wrote:
> Arno Wagner wrote:

>> Previously lazinator <laslo.TakeThisOut@actionfront.com> wrote:
>>
>>> RPR wrote:
>>>> Generally data recovery companies replace the drive's board first, then
>>>> the preamp board inside the HDA. If that doesn't help, they may check
>>>> if a head needs to and can be replaced. The last step is taking the
>>>> drive apart, putting each platter on a spin stand (like a turntable)
>>>> and reading the analog data with a high performance head and converting
>>>> the flux changes into user data with software. This can generally
>>>> recover anything that's not physically erased or damaged but takes a
>>>> lot of time.
>>
>>> The technology you described does not exist, no data recovery company
>>> or intelligence/law enforcement agency recovers data by reading analog
>>> data off platters on a spin stand.
>>
>> HDDs have long since switched to analog reading and decoding, so there
>> is no advantage left in doing so. With classical digital decoding
>> doing maximum likelyhood decoding would gain you some signal
>> improvement (1.5dB better S/N ratio, if I remember my coding theory
>> course correctly). Not anymore.

> ????? Disks have always used analog signalling for data storage. One
> frequency it's a one, the other it's a zero.

As you said "one is 1 the other is 0". But that is classical (M)FM.
Modern modulation is far more sophisticated and modern disks read
values 0.0 ... 1.0 for the bits and then decode them into the
real target data or do error correction of these "soft" bits.
Classical disks read the bits directly as 0 or 1 and if that
failed did error correction on the hard 0/1 values.

Arno
 >> Stay informed about: Physical hard drive failure. 

Arno Wagner wrote:

> Previously J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet DeleteThis @snet.net.invalid> wrote:
>> Arno Wagner wrote:
>
>>> Previously lazinator <laslo DeleteThis @actionfront.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> RPR wrote:
>>>>> Generally data recovery companies replace the drive's board first,
>>>>> then the preamp board inside the HDA. If that doesn't help, they may
>>>>> check if a head needs to and can be replaced. The last step is taking
>>>>> the drive apart, putting each platter on a spin stand (like a
>>>>> turntable) and reading the analog data with a high performance head
>>>>> and converting the flux changes into user data with software. This can
>>>>> generally recover anything that's not physically erased or damaged but
>>>>> takes a lot of time.
>>>
>>>> The technology you described does not exist, no data recovery company
>>>> or intelligence/law enforcement agency recovers data by reading analog
>>>> data off platters on a spin stand.
>>>
>>> HDDs have long since switched to analog reading and decoding, so there
>>> is no advantage left in doing so. With classical digital decoding
>>> doing maximum likelyhood decoding would gain you some signal
>>> improvement (1.5dB better S/N ratio, if I remember my coding theory
>>> course correctly). Not anymore.
>
>> ????? Disks have always used analog signalling for data storage. One
>> frequency it's a one, the other it's a zero.
>
> As you said "one is 1 the other is 0". But that is classical (M)FM.
> Modern modulation is far more sophisticated and modern disks read
> values 0.0 ... 1.0 for the bits and then decode them into the
> real target data or do error correction of these "soft" bits.
> Classical disks read the bits directly as 0 or 1 and if that
> failed did error correction on the hard 0/1 values.

Can you guide me to more information on this?

> Arno

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
 >> Stay informed about: Physical hard drive failure. 

Previously J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet.DeleteThis@snet.net.invalid> wrote:
> Arno Wagner wrote:

>> Previously J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet.DeleteThis@snet.net.invalid> wrote:
>>> Arno Wagner wrote:
>>
>>>> Previously lazinator <laslo.DeleteThis@actionfront.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> RPR wrote:
>>>>>> Generally data recovery companies replace the drive's board first,
>>>>>> then the preamp board inside the HDA. If that doesn't help, they may
>>>>>> check if a head needs to and can be replaced. The last step is taking
>>>>>> the drive apart, putting each platter on a spin stand (like a
>>>>>> turntable) and reading the analog data with a high performance head
>>>>>> and converting the flux changes into user data with software. This can
>>>>>> generally recover anything that's not physically erased or damaged but
>>>>>> takes a lot of time.
>>>>
>>>>> The technology you described does not exist, no data recovery company
>>>>> or intelligence/law enforcement agency recovers data by reading analog
>>>>> data off platters on a spin stand.
>>>>
>>>> HDDs have long since switched to analog reading and decoding, so there
>>>> is no advantage left in doing so. With classical digital decoding
>>>> doing maximum likelyhood decoding would gain you some signal
>>>> improvement (1.5dB better S/N ratio, if I remember my coding theory
>>>> course correctly). Not anymore.
>>
>>> ????? Disks have always used analog signalling for data storage. One
>>> frequency it's a one, the other it's a zero.
>>
>> As you said "one is 1 the other is 0". But that is classical (M)FM.
>> Modern modulation is far more sophisticated and modern disks read
>> values 0.0 ... 1.0 for the bits and then decode them into the
>> real target data or do error correction of these "soft" bits.
>> Classical disks read the bits directly as 0 or 1 and if that
>> failed did error correction on the hard 0/1 values.

> Can you guide me to more information on this?

It has been a long time since I studied the subject. Google
returns relevant hits for google(soft decision decoding) and
google(maximum likelihood decoding). The actual decoding is
significantly more difficult than the classical "hard" decoding
and may even be prohibitively expensive for some codes.

Unfortunately I did not find a concise introduction. The course
I learned this had hand-drawn slides by the lecturer....

Arno
 >> Stay informed about: Physical hard drive failure. 

I didnt say that i'm privy to the internal workings of every LEA/intel
agency in the world, but you are so confident in your statement that
you must be privy to it. You must've seen this magic machine with your
own eyes ?

Somebody asked "How would you know". Well, i've been doing this for a
while and i talked to enough people in various agencies to know what
they can and cant do.
Coincidentally John isnt completely wrong, we developed technology he
was describing and right now it's in a late prototyping stage. It was
first publicly demonstrated at the NASA MSST2004 storage show in Apr
of last year. But again, currently it is not being used in production
recoveries, and nobody has/uses anything like this.

Somebody had questions on how drives work internally, i can write some
stuff up on monday if there's still interest.
 >> Stay informed about: Physical hard drive failure.