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External
Since: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 48
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:59 pm
Post subject: New computer is silent
Archived from groups: alt>comp>hardware>homebuilt (more info?)
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Hi all
How do I make my PC run silent. My mate got a new P4 hyper-threading Dell
computer for about £800 and it's silent and I mean silent. Not a sound from
it. If it weren't for the monitor, LED's and the CDr/w (when
reading/writing) I would swear it was off. My soon to be upgraded Athlon
1800 system sounds like a vacume cleaner!!! He won't let me look inside it,
so does anyone know what cooling system, disk mounts, PSU etc Dell are
using?
Thanks if you can.
Scotoma |
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External
Since: Mar 05, 2004
Posts: 204
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:56 am
Post subject: Re: New computer is silent [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> How do I make my PC run silent. My mate got a new P4 hyper-threading Dell
> computer for about £800 and it's silent and I mean silent. Not a sound from
> it. If it weren't for the monitor, LED's and the CDr/w (when
> reading/writing) I would swear it was off. My soon to be upgraded Athlon
> 1800 system sounds like a vacume cleaner!!! He won't let me look inside it,
> so does anyone know what cooling system, disk mounts, PSU etc Dell are
> using?
o Identify which component in your PC makes the most noise
o Start there in terms of spend & effort re prioritisation
o Focus on causes of noise, rather than treating the effect of noise
CPU cooler - fan is probably 60-70mm
o Replace fan ($)
---- replace with 80mm fan & fan-adapter
---- larger fan = more swept area = lower noise level for same cfm
o Replace heatsink ($$-$$$)
---- Zalman flower or SLK heatsink offer better cooling
---- combine with low noise fan, eg, 80mm or 92mm
Graphics card - fan can be major noise area
o Fit quieter fan ($)
---- not always possible, but worth investigating
o Fit passive cooling solution ($$)
---- target
PSU - fan & grill design a major noise source
o Fans on the outside of the case are most noticeable
---- case fans fans sit between ears & soundproofing
---- CPU-cooler / soundproofing / case-fans / case / ears
o PSU grill design is often 82-84% of PC ATX case airflow resistance
---- using a round-wire grill can considerably reduce
Front intake fans are closer to your ears:
o Try the case without them at first
---- re temperatures
---- re noise
o If fitted, choose lower noise components here
---- subject to items requiring immediate cooling behind them
---- eg, 10,000rpm SCSI need direct cooling 
Do things one by one, starting at the worst offender.
Then measure temperatures & assess noise afterwards.
Don't throw money at the problem.
Don't throw multiple fans at the problem.
Fewer fans themselves produce lower noise levels - something to consider.
It's not so much the number, or the actual cfm, but how you use them - carefully.
For example, round-wire grills on the intake & exhaust can reduce case airflow
resistance sufficiently to 1) reduce noise and 2) reduce temperatures noticeably.
Prioritise - if you want to find the noisiest fan, and suspect a CPU fan then with
the PC running & side off, *gently* touch the centre of the fan hub to slow it down
a little and notice if that is the cause of your noise - or if it's somewhere else. Many
fans (especially CPU) use phenolic blades which can shatter, so watch fingers.
--
Dorothy Bradbury
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan" target="_blank">www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan</a> for fans, books & other items
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.bradbury/panaflo.htm" target="_blank">http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.bradbury/panaflo.htm</a> (Direct)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
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External
Since: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 48
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:41 am
Post subject: Re: New computer is silent [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Dorothy Bradbury" <dorothy.bradbury.RemoveThis@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:tMm9c.1152$Pd7.583@newsfe1-win...
> > How do I make my PC run silent. My mate got a new P4 hyper-threading
Dell
> > computer for about £800 and it's silent and I mean silent. Not a sound
from
> > it. If it weren't for the monitor, LED's and the CDr/w (when
> > reading/writing) I would swear it was off. My soon to be upgraded Athlon
> > 1800 system sounds like a vacume cleaner!!! He won't let me look inside
it,
> > so does anyone know what cooling system, disk mounts, PSU etc Dell are
> > using?
>
> o Identify which component in your PC makes the most noise
> o Start there in terms of spend & effort re prioritisation
> o Focus on causes of noise, rather than treating the effect of noise
>
> CPU cooler - fan is probably 60-70mm
> o Replace fan ($)
> ---- replace with 80mm fan & fan-adapter
> ---- larger fan = more swept area = lower noise level for same cfm
> o Replace heatsink ($$-$$$)
> ---- Zalman flower or SLK heatsink offer better cooling
> ---- combine with low noise fan, eg, 80mm or 92mm
>
> Graphics card - fan can be major noise area
> o Fit quieter fan ($)
> ---- not always possible, but worth investigating
> o Fit passive cooling solution ($$)
> ---- target
>
> PSU - fan & grill design a major noise source
> o Fans on the outside of the case are most noticeable
> ---- case fans fans sit between ears & soundproofing
> ---- CPU-cooler / soundproofing / case-fans / case / ears
> o PSU grill design is often 82-84% of PC ATX case airflow resistance
> ---- using a round-wire grill can considerably reduce
>
> Front intake fans are closer to your ears:
> o Try the case without them at first
> ---- re temperatures
> ---- re noise
> o If fitted, choose lower noise components here
> ---- subject to items requiring immediate cooling behind them
> ---- eg, 10,000rpm SCSI need direct cooling
>
> Do things one by one, starting at the worst offender.
> Then measure temperatures & assess noise afterwards.
>
> Don't throw money at the problem.
> Don't throw multiple fans at the problem.
>
> Fewer fans themselves produce lower noise levels - something to consider.
> It's not so much the number, or the actual cfm, but how you use them -
carefully.
>
> For example, round-wire grills on the intake & exhaust can reduce case
airflow
> resistance sufficiently to 1) reduce noise and 2) reduce temperatures
noticeably.
>
> Prioritise - if you want to find the noisiest fan, and suspect a CPU fan
then with
> the PC running & side off, *gently* touch the centre of the fan hub to
slow it down
> a little and notice if that is the cause of your noise - or if it's
somewhere else. Many
> fans (especially CPU) use phenolic blades which can shatter, so watch
fingers.
> --
> Dorothy Bradbury
> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan" target="_blank">www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan</a> for fans, books & other items
> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.bradbury/panaflo.htm" target="_blank">http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.bradbury/panaflo.htm</a> (Direct)
>
>
Hi Dorothy Bradbury
Thanks for the info. )
I was looking at the Dell site but it had no info about cooling.
I was given this though. <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://silentpcreview.com/article21-page1.html" target="_blank">http://silentpcreview.com/article21-page1.html</a>
Thanks again.
Scotoma<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: New computer is silent |
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External
Since: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 48
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 2:12 am
Post subject: Re: New computer is silent [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Dorothy Bradbury" <dorothy.bradbury.TakeThisOut@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:tMm9c.1152$Pd7.583@newsfe1-win...
> > How do I make my PC run silent. My mate got a new P4 hyper-threading
Dell
> > computer for about £800 and it's silent and I mean silent. Not a sound
from
> > it. If it weren't for the monitor, LED's and the CDr/w (when
> > reading/writing) I would swear it was off. My soon to be upgraded Athlon
> > 1800 system sounds like a vacume cleaner!!! He won't let me look inside
it,
> > so does anyone know what cooling system, disk mounts, PSU etc Dell are
> > using?
>
> o Identify which component in your PC makes the most noise
> o Start there in terms of spend & effort re prioritisation
> o Focus on causes of noise, rather than treating the effect of noise
>
> CPU cooler - fan is probably 60-70mm
> o Replace fan ($)
> ---- replace with 80mm fan & fan-adapter
> ---- larger fan = more swept area = lower noise level for same cfm
> o Replace heatsink ($$-$$$)
> ---- Zalman flower or SLK heatsink offer better cooling
> ---- combine with low noise fan, eg, 80mm or 92mm
>
> Graphics card - fan can be major noise area
> o Fit quieter fan ($)
> ---- not always possible, but worth investigating
> o Fit passive cooling solution ($$)
> ---- target
>
> PSU - fan & grill design a major noise source
> o Fans on the outside of the case are most noticeable
> ---- case fans fans sit between ears & soundproofing
> ---- CPU-cooler / soundproofing / case-fans / case / ears
> o PSU grill design is often 82-84% of PC ATX case airflow resistance
> ---- using a round-wire grill can considerably reduce
>
> Front intake fans are closer to your ears:
> o Try the case without them at first
> ---- re temperatures
> ---- re noise
> o If fitted, choose lower noise components here
> ---- subject to items requiring immediate cooling behind them
> ---- eg, 10,000rpm SCSI need direct cooling
>
> Do things one by one, starting at the worst offender.
> Then measure temperatures & assess noise afterwards.
>
> Don't throw money at the problem.
> Don't throw multiple fans at the problem.
>
> Fewer fans themselves produce lower noise levels - something to consider.
> It's not so much the number, or the actual cfm, but how you use them -
carefully.
>
> For example, round-wire grills on the intake & exhaust can reduce case
airflow
> resistance sufficiently to 1) reduce noise and 2) reduce temperatures
noticeably.
>
> Prioritise - if you want to find the noisiest fan, and suspect a CPU fan
then with
> the PC running & side off, *gently* touch the centre of the fan hub to
slow it down
> a little and notice if that is the cause of your noise - or if it's
somewhere else. Many
> fans (especially CPU) use phenolic blades which can shatter, so watch
fingers.
>
On following your advice I'll be looking into getting a new silent PSU, a
new rear case fan and maybe butchering the rear case fan vent or getting a
new case. The rear case fan is omitting the most noise. This is due to the
small vent holes. When the PSU fan and case fan were stopped briefly for
about 5 seconds my PC was silent! The two fans attached to the Athlon1800+
cpu are silent. The chipset has no fan.
Thanks again.
Scotoma<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: New computer is silent |
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External
Since: Mar 05, 2004
Posts: 204
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 2:33 am
Post subject: Re: New computer is silent [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> I was looking at the Dell site but it had no info about cooling.
<font color=purple> > I was given this though. <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://silentpcreview.com/article21-page1.html</font" target="_blank">http://silentpcreview.com/article21-page1.html</font</a>>
> Thanks again.
That shows the difference quite clearly:
o Branded PCs can design at the system level
---- control Case, PSU, CPU design & layout
---- and in so doing control thermal-system & noise
---- large CPU fan is also case fan on rear of the case = lower cost
---- passive CPU heatsink with duct used to pull air thro
o Generic PCs design to open component standards
---- proprietarisation is cost & mkt segmentation
BTX will close the gap on Dell, but Dell moved the goal posts.
Ironic that Dell should be engineering the system of a PC in a
manner which only IBM once did - at a price IBM never did.
If you are a system producer, you can CFD/FEA the whole lot
from thermal to noise to mechanical system - and the latter I do
think will eventually become important re thermal cycling. A lot
of PCs are held together by little solder balls between two areas
of different thermal expansion & mechanical flexing over time.
In that respect Dell has it's laptop engineering history to help.
You could build a dell style case yourself, but it would require
a little bit of effort for ducts and careful case choice.
--
Dorothy Bradbury<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: New computer is silent |
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External
Since: Mar 05, 2004
Posts: 204
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 2:34 am
Post subject: Re: New computer is silent [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> When the PSU fan and case fan were stopped briefly for about 5 seconds
> my PC was silent! The two fans attached to the Athlon1800+ cpu are silent.
That's it - prioritise spend according to the noise cause.
--
Dorothy Bradbury<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: New computer is silent |
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External
Since: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 304
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 3:02 pm
Post subject: Re: New computer is silent [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Scotoma wrote:
> Hi all
>
> How do I make my PC run silent. My mate got a new P4 hyper-threading
> Dell computer for about £800 and it's silent and I mean silent. Not a
> sound from it. If it weren't for the monitor, LED's and the CDr/w
> (when reading/writing) I would swear it was off. My soon to be
> upgraded Athlon 1800 system sounds like a vacume cleaner!!! He won't
> let me look inside it, so does anyone know what cooling system, disk
> mounts, PSU etc Dell are using?
Dell use a passive Al heatsink with a 90° elbow. A quiet 80-92mm fan draws
air out of the case. IIRC, the power supply has only one fan.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: New computer is silent |
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External
Since: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 40
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 3:02 pm
Post subject: Re: New computer is silent [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"S.Heenan" <sheenan RemoveThis @wahs.ac> wrote in message
news:Q9z9c.31483$R27.17961@pd7tw2no...
> Scotoma wrote:
> > Hi all
> >
> > How do I make my PC run silent. My mate got a new P4 hyper-threading
> > Dell computer for about £800 and it's silent and I mean silent. Not a
> > sound from it. If it weren't for the monitor, LED's and the CDr/w
> > (when reading/writing) I would swear it was off. My soon to be
> > upgraded Athlon 1800 system sounds like a vacume cleaner!!! He won't
> > let me look inside it, so does anyone know what cooling system, disk
> > mounts, PSU etc Dell are using?
>
> Dell use a passive Al heatsink with a 90° elbow. A quiet 80-92mm fan draws
> air out of the case. IIRC, the power supply has only one fan.
>
and they really don't care how hot it runs, as long as it isn't too hot.
--
Good Luck!
BB<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: New computer is silent |
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External
Since: May 06, 2004
Posts: 19
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 3:44 pm
Post subject: Re: New computer is silent [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Scotoma" <me.DeleteThis@play.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ETn9c.14706$Nv5.3867@news-lhr.blueyonder.co.uk...
> On following your advice I'll be looking into getting a new silent PSU, a
> new rear case fan and maybe butchering the rear case fan vent or getting a
> new case. The rear case fan is omitting the most noise. This is due to the
> small vent holes. When the PSU fan and case fan were stopped briefly for
> about 5 seconds my PC was silent! The two fans attached to the Athlon1800+
> cpu are silent. The chipset has no fan.
>
Excellent advice given already. I bought a vantec stealth psu and was
disappointed at the noise it produces, even on the lowest fan setting.
Stay away from the vantec stealth series and google for lots of reviews on
the psu you choose before you order it. Not everything advertised as
v.quiet/silent is that quiet really, check those reviews, I do before I buy
now.
--
Ian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: New computer is silent |
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External
Since: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 48
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:50 pm
Post subject: Re: New computer is silent [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Apollo" <REMOVEMEian_dunbar6.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c46dqt$2dmu4r$1@ID-115425.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Scotoma" <me.DeleteThis@play.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ETn9c.14706$Nv5.3867@news-lhr.blueyonder.co.uk...
> > On following your advice I'll be looking into getting a new silent PSU,
a
> > new rear case fan and maybe butchering the rear case fan vent or getting
a
> > new case. The rear case fan is omitting the most noise. This is due to
the
> > small vent holes. When the PSU fan and case fan were stopped briefly for
> > about 5 seconds my PC was silent! The two fans attached to the
Athlon1800+
> > cpu are silent. The chipset has no fan.
> >
>
> Excellent advice given already. I bought a vantec stealth psu and was
> disappointed at the noise it produces, even on the lowest fan setting.
> Stay away from the vantec stealth series and google for lots of reviews on
> the psu you choose before you order it. Not everything advertised as
> v.quiet/silent is that quiet really, check those reviews, I do before I
buy
> now.
>
> --
> Ian
>
>
Thanks Ian. Will do. )
Scotoma<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: New computer is silent |
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External
Since: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 48
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:10 pm
Post subject: Re: New computer is silent [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"S.Heenan" <sheenan.RemoveThis@wahs.ac> wrote in message
news:Q9z9c.31483$R27.17961@pd7tw2no...
> Scotoma wrote:
> > Hi all
> >
> > How do I make my PC run silent. My mate got a new P4 hyper-threading
> > Dell computer for about £800 and it's silent and I mean silent. Not a
> > sound from it. If it weren't for the monitor, LED's and the CDr/w
> > (when reading/writing) I would swear it was off. My soon to be
> > upgraded Athlon 1800 system sounds like a vacume cleaner!!! He won't
> > let me look inside it, so does anyone know what cooling system, disk
> > mounts, PSU etc Dell are using?
>
> Dell use a passive Al heatsink with a 90° elbow. A quiet 80-92mm fan draws
> air out of the case. IIRC, the power supply has only one fan.
>
>
Hi S.Heenan
Thanks for the info. ). I've noticed that the vents at the back of a Dell
PC are large with wire grills. I'll be getting the wire cutters out for a
butcher job on my case. Infact, I'll see if I can just cut a large hole if
possible.
Is the 90° elbow you mention, the green hood in the pics here?
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://silentpcreview.com/article21-page1.html" target="_blank">http://silentpcreview.com/article21-page1.html</a> . I'll make sure I get a PSU
with only one fan.
Thanks again )
Scotoma<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: New computer is silent |
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External
Since: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 48
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:11 pm
Post subject: Re: New computer is silent [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Billy_Bat" <billy_bat RemoveThis @reallyhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4066d8d7$0$3040$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...
> "S.Heenan" <sheenan RemoveThis @wahs.ac> wrote in message
> news:Q9z9c.31483$R27.17961@pd7tw2no...
> > Scotoma wrote:
> > > Hi all
> > >
> > > How do I make my PC run silent. My mate got a new P4 hyper-threading
> > > Dell computer for about £800 and it's silent and I mean silent. Not a
> > > sound from it. If it weren't for the monitor, LED's and the CDr/w
> > > (when reading/writing) I would swear it was off. My soon to be
> > > upgraded Athlon 1800 system sounds like a vacume cleaner!!! He won't
> > > let me look inside it, so does anyone know what cooling system, disk
> > > mounts, PSU etc Dell are using?
> >
> > Dell use a passive Al heatsink with a 90° elbow. A quiet 80-92mm fan
draws
> > air out of the case. IIRC, the power supply has only one fan.
> >
> and they really don't care how hot it runs, as long as it isn't too hot.
> --
>
> Good Luck!
> BB
>
>
Cheers )<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: New computer is silent |
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External
Since: Mar 05, 2004
Posts: 204
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:05 pm
Post subject: Re: New computer is silent [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> and they really don't care how hot it runs, as long as it isn't too hot.
Hence they remove overclocking options
That kind of passive desktop cooling solution isn't hard to integrate:
o If you control case design, you can have a rear case-mounted CPU-fan
o If you can control motherboard design, you can have a duct to your CPU
o If you can control heatsink spec, you can easily get something ok in alloy
Stuff the thing in an oven matching your intended ambient, thrash the CPU,
note the maximum CPU temp (and it better not throttle). Then note the same
for surrounding components like VRM capacitors or specify lower ESR etc.
Dell has increasingly begun to use a lot of CFD/FEA in the design of their
machines - so empirical testing is merely to confirm the final virtual design.
Part of that is re heat, part is re moving into consumer entertainment areas
since those applications have reliability above performance as the criterion.
Despite that I was surprised at how much a Dell P4 laptop throttled the
CPU - basically making the headline clock figure largely irrelevant. A P-M
for continuous (more than few second) computational tasks has a clear mkt.
So at present it's merely accommodating hot CPUs vs allowing them to
maintain anything like continuous desktop performance - at least silently.
Dell is also interested at preferably locking you in to non-upgradeable,
from proprietary motherboard layout & PSU - to potentially cooling limit.
Usually thermal solutions do allow some leeway - altho future socket designs
are proving problematic re insertion/removal cycle reliability, another factor.
Dell's proprietary solution has benefits for multi-CPU or rack mount, where
future case designs are very lacking in specification or simply incompatible.
--
Dorothy Bradbury
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan" target="_blank">www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan</a> for fans, books & other items
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.bradbury/panaflo.htm" target="_blank">http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.bradbury/panaflo.htm</a> (Direct)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: New computer is silent |
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External
Since: Mar 12, 2004
Posts: 28
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:29 pm
Post subject: Re: New computer is silent [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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If you want a quiet computer you have to start with a quiet case and
start from there. I have an Antec SLK3700AMB and this cas along with
the SLK3700BQE are both well designed and sturdy cases. Mine is a
Metalic gray the BQE is black. They both have a 120mm Exhaust fan.
Mine also has rubber mounts for the hard drive so it makes less noise.
Having a front door that closes over the optical drives also makes it
even quieter. I used an XP2800+ Retail processor and I found it to be
a very quiet and efficient CPU Cooler. The video card is passively
cooled with no fan. The motherboard is an A7N8X with no chipset fan.
This computer barely whispers.
On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 20:59:09 GMT, "Scotoma" <me.DeleteThis@play.co.uk> wrote:
>Hi all
>
>How do I make my PC run silent. My mate got a new P4 hyper-threading Dell
>computer for about £800 and it's silent and I mean silent. Not a sound from
>it. If it weren't for the monitor, LED's and the CDr/w (when
>reading/writing) I would swear it was off. My soon to be upgraded Athlon
>1800 system sounds like a vacume cleaner!!! He won't let me look inside it,
>so does anyone know what cooling system, disk mounts, PSU etc Dell are
>using?
>
>Thanks if you can.
>
>Scotoma
><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: New computer is silent |
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External
Since: Mar 05, 2004
Posts: 204
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:36 pm
Post subject: Re: New computer is silent [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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