Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip?

John Doe wrote:
> w_tom <w_tom1 usa.net> wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> Protectors being grossly undersized are adversely
>> affected by 'dirty' electricity output by a UPS. Manufacturers
>> quietly recommend no power strip protectors on a UPS output. Power
>> strip on a UPS input would be a direct connection to an AC wall
>> receptacle (via fuse and switch).
>
> w_tom has some perverse dislike for surge suppressors. He searches the
> USENET archives looking for keywords like surge suppressor, power
> supply, and UPS. There are details in his reply that could be
> questioned, but that will only get you knee-deep in his garbage.

That doesn't make him wrong. That said, while his first two sentences
parse, about the output side of a UPS, I can't get the last sentence,
about the input side of the UPS, to parse. Can you?


<useless header quoting snipped>

--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
 >> Stay informed about: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip? 

Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:

> John Doe wrote:
>> Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> John Doe wrote:
>>
>>>> I meant if you are using a surge suppressor in the same line,
>>>> then the UPS goes after the surge suppressor.
>>
>>> "Plug in the AC power cord to a wall outlet."
>> [see link at bottom]
>>
>> That's correct, otherwise it wouldn't work.
>>
>> From the same document:
>>
>> "Do not plug surge protectors or power strips into the
>> battery-backup outlets."

> Different topic.

Is that the way I was supposed to respond to you, troll?

> The original topic was me saying that the manual for the UPS said to
> plug that unit in directly.

The original topic was about plugging a power strip into another power
strip.

Unless maybe you think you are the origin of everything?

> I quoted the manual saying to plug it in directly.

That's what I challenged. The manual does not use the word "directly".

>> That's what I'm talking about. I guess it has something to do with
>> a
>
> Apparently that's what you're changing the topic to now.

The order of a UPS versus surge suppressor was the subject of my post
that you replied to.

>> surge suppressor being unable to handle the output waveform from
>> the UPS.
>
> I dunno.

And because you don't know, you will remain ignorant?

> My only input was to mention what the manual said about plugging in
> the UPS unit itself.

That was a misquote.

>> They cannot tell you everything that's okay to do. If there were
>> something wrong with plugging a UPS into a surge suppressor (not
>> the other way around), they would warn you against that.
>
> Telling me to plug it into the wall says to me that that's where it
> should go.

That doesn't mean the wall is the only place it should go.

> The manual also says to look for a (parphrase) "bad power
> indication" from the UPS when you plug it in. You probably wouldn't
> have a shot at that being a reliable test if the UPS was plugged
> into some $8 "surge strip" from the drug store.

Even if that were true, nobody is recommending a cheap power strip in
front of a UPS.












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> From: Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid>
> Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
> Subject: Re: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip?
> Date: 10 Jul 2007 05:18:56 GMT
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 >> Stay informed about: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip? 

John Doe wrote:
> Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:
>
>> John Doe wrote:
>>> Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Doe wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I meant if you are using a surge suppressor in the same line, then
>>>>> the UPS goes after the surge suppressor.
>>>
>>>> "Plug in the AC power cord to a wall outlet."
>>> [see link at bottom]
>>>
>>> That's correct, otherwise it wouldn't work.
>>>
>>> From the same document:
>>>
>>> "Do not plug surge protectors or power strips into the
>>> battery-backup outlets."
>
>> Different topic.
>
> Is that the way I was supposed to respond to you, troll?

Troll? Yeah, right.

>> The original topic was me saying that the manual for the UPS said to
>> plug that unit in directly.
>
> The original topic was about plugging a power strip into another power
> strip.
>
> Unless maybe you think you are the origin of everything?

No more than you are. I came in at plugging a UPS into a power strip; I
discussed that.

>> I quoted the manual saying to plug it in directly.
>
> That's what I challenged. The manual does not use the word "directly".

If you wish to read "into the wall" as "into something that is not the
wall", there's nothing anyone can do about it.

>>> That's what I'm talking about. I guess it has something to do with a
>>
>> Apparently that's what you're changing the topic to now.
>
> The order of a UPS versus surge suppressor was the subject of my post
> that you replied to.

And I said that the order my manufacturer cited was UPS-into-wall, not
UPS-into-surge-strip. Right on topic, by golly!

>>> surge suppressor being unable to handle the output waveform from the
>>> UPS.
>>
>> I dunno.
>
> And because you don't know, you will remain ignorant?

I don't know from a reliable authority the exact technical reason that
it's bad biz to plug a surge strip into the output side of a UPS unit.
I won't *do* it, but I don't mind remaining ignorant about the physics
involved. Similarly, I don't know all of the chemical reactions between
ingestion of cyanide and death; but I know that I won't ingest any.

>> My only input was to mention what the manual said about plugging in
>> the UPS unit itself.
>
> That was a misquote.

I believe the manual's use of "into the wall" means...well, "into the
wall". No, they didn't say "directly", and I said up front that I was
running from memory; I hadn't read the manual for two or three years
until I downloaded it today for this discussion.

>>> They cannot tell you everything that's okay to do. If there were
>>> something wrong with plugging a UPS into a surge suppressor (not the
>>> other way around), they would warn you against that.
>>
>> Telling me to plug it into the wall says to me that that's where it
>> should go.
>
> That doesn't mean the wall is the only place it should go.

Hell, it *could* go into the drain hole in the tub. Because the
manual doesn't say not to, y'know. But I choose to think that the
writers (at least since it's not written in Engrish) know, and presume
we know, what "into the wall" means.

>> The manual also says to look for a (parphrase) "bad power indication"
>> from the UPS when you plug it in. You probably wouldn't have a shot
>> at that being a reliable test if the UPS was plugged into some $8
>> "surge strip" from the drug store.
>
> Even if that were true, nobody is recommending a cheap power strip in
> front of a UPS.

I thought I saw, way upthread someone (please carefully note that
"someone" does not mean "John Doe" - although it also does not by nature
necessarily exclude him) suggesting it was okay to place a surge strip
between the wall and the UPS. But whether or not that is the case, I
still believe that "into the wall" means what it says.

<more useless quoted headers snipped>


--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
 >> Stay informed about: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip? 

Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:

....

<snipped lots of denial and trolling>

I can see why Blinky the Shark enjoys 24hoursupport.helpdesk, a group
full of off-topic garbage populated by trolls.

> But I choose to think that the writers (at least since it's not
> written in Engrish) know, and presume we know, what "into the wall"
> means.

Their instruction about setting up the UPS is irrelevant to your
incorrect claim that a UPS should not be plugged into a surge
suppressor.














> --
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>
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> From: Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid>
> Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
> Subject: Re: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip?
> Date: 10 Jul 2007 06:31:17 GMT
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>
 >> Stay informed about: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip? 

John Doe wrote:
> Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> while his first two sentences parse, about the output side of a UPS,
>> I can't get the last sentence, about the input side of the UPS, to
>> parse.
>
> Would that be part of your Usenet Improvement Project? No sentence
> left unparsed?

I just wondered what he was trying to say in that one statement that
someone quoted. Then I think I went manual (disengaging my score file)
and saw his long (boilerplate?) post. That still didn't quite clear up
that point.

That said:

A few Google Groupers were harmed in the making of the Usenet
Improvement Project.




--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
 >> Stay informed about: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip? 

John Doe wrote:
> Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:
>
> ...
>
><snipped lots of denial and trolling>
>
> I can see why Blinky the Shark enjoys 24hoursupport.helpdesk, a group
> full of off-topic garbage populated by trolls.
>
>> But I choose to think that the writers (at least since it's not
>> written in Engrish) know, and presume we know, what "into the wall"
>> means.
>
> Their instruction about setting up the UPS is irrelevant to your
> incorrect claim that a UPS should not be plugged into a surge
> suppressor.

Well, except for their instruction to plug it into the wall.


--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
 >> Stay informed about: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip? 

John Doe wrote:
> Blinky the Shark <no.spam DeleteThis @box.invalid> wrote:
>
>> John Doe wrote:
>>> Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>><snipped lots of denial and trolling>
>>>
>>> I can see why Blinky the Shark enjoys 24hoursupport.helpdesk, a
>>> group full of off-topic garbage populated by trolls.
>>>
>>>> But I choose to think that the writers (at least since it's not
>>>> written in Engrish) know, and presume we know, what "into the wall"
>>>> means.
>>>
>>> Their instruction about setting up the UPS is irrelevant to your
>>> incorrect claim that a UPS should not be plugged into a surge
>>> suppressor.
>>
>> Well, except for their instruction to plug it into the wall.
>
> Nobody cares what you do with your UPS.

This was never about my UPS. I didn't ask what to do with my UPS. I
already did what my manual said to do with my UPS, which was a
suggestion for whoever else was wondering what to do with his UPS.
Surge strips? We don't need any surge strips. We don't have to show
you any esteenking surge strips.


--
Blinky RLU 297263
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 >> Stay informed about: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip? 

w_tom wrote:
> On Jul 8, 3:09 pm, Blinky the Shark <no.s....TakeThisOut@box.invalid> wrote:
>> Although I can't find its documentation, I'm pretty sure my Belkin UPS
>> is supposed to be connected directly to the wall.
>
> When you plug a UPS into a power strip protector, then that UPS
> connects directly to an AC wall receptacle. There is no voltage
> regulation inside that power strip. Between the Belkin and that wall
> receptacle is maybe a fuse (absolutely essential) and a switch.
> Protection between UPS and wall receptacle is mythical.
>
> So where is the protector circuit? That circuit could be removed
> from a power strip and plugged separately into the wall receptacle.
> Nothing electrically changed. None of that surge protector circuit is
> between the Belkin and wall receptacle. Yes, that should have you
> asking some damning questions such as "Why does the power strip
> protector not even claim to protect from a type of surge that
> typically damages electronics?"

Complete nonsense.

If you want reliable information on surges and surge protection the IEEE
has an excellent guide at:
http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pd
and the NIST has a good one at:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf

The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The
NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses.

Both guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Plug-in suppressors certainly do claim to protect from surges that
damage electronics.
The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work by clamping the voltage
on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the suppressor.
Ratings range from junk to very high.

Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the
same plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires need to go through the
suppressor. External connections, like phone, CATV, ... also need to go
through the suppressor. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor
prevents damaging voltages between power and signal wires. These
multiport suppressors are described in both the IEEE and NIST guides.


>
> That same dirty electricity can be harmful to power strip
> protectors.

I agree that plug-in suppressors should not be connected to the output
of a UPS.

UPSs can be connected to a plug-in suppressor. It would be better if the
suppression was then primarily done by the plug-in suppressor, not the
UPS. Plug-in suppressors are readily available with very high ratings -
probably much higher than what is easily available in a UPS. If I had a
UPS, I would rather have low surge suppression in the UPS and plug it in
to a plug-in suppressor with very high ratings.

In the original quote, if the Belkin UPS had significant surge
suppression, Belkin probably wouldn’t want an additional suppressor
between its UPS and the outlet.

---------------------------------
Regarding the original question - UL says power strips “are not intended
to be series connected (daisy chained) to other [power strips] or to
extension cords”. I haven’t seen a reason, but wiring can rapidly become
a mess and overloading becomes more likely.

--
bud--
 >> Stay informed about: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip? 

Blinky the Shark <no.spam RemoveThis @box.invalid> wrote:

> John Doe wrote:
>> Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> John Doe wrote:
>>>> Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> John Doe wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Their instruction about setting up the UPS is irrelevant to
>>>>>> your incorrect claim that a UPS should not be plugged into a
>>>>>> surge suppressor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, except for their instruction to plug it into the wall.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody cares what you do with your UPS.
>>>
>>> This was never about my UPS. I didn't ask what to do with my UPS.
>>> I already did what my manual said to do with my UPS, which was a
>>> suggestion for whoever else was wondering what to do with his UPS.
>>
>> Okay then. You aren't warning against plugging a UPS into a surge
>> suppressor. You're just telling everyone it's OK to plug their UPS
>> into the wall.
>
> From the beginning I've been saying that my UPS manufacturer
> recommends plugging the unit into a wall socket and that that's the
> only place *that it recommends" in its manual.

It doesn't say "recommend" and that's not a recommendation, it's
instruction for setting up your UPS.

They are simply telling you to plug your UPS into the wall before
using it.

> Your semantic games bore me.

That's no surprise considering you play them so much.
 >> Stay informed about: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip? 

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:35:40 +0000, Blinky the Shark wrote:

> John Doe wrote:
>> Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:


> From the beginning I've been saying that my UPS manufacturer recommends
> plugging the unit into a wall socket and that that's the only place
> *that it recommends" in its manual. Your semantic games bore me. They
> are not constructive. Have a nice life.

Some manufacturers will not honour warranties if there is a failure and an
extension cord/power distribution bar of any sort is used in the setup.
The reason being that many extensions are constructed by the user/owner
and in many cases do not follow the standards for connector connections
thus rendering useless any surge protection that may be incorporated in
the commercial UPS etc. For example many people do not even bother with
such mundane requirements as ground/earth connections at all so that MOVs
between hot and gnd an neutral and gnd on the UPS would not be functional
at all.


--

__________________________________________________________________
Linux Geek

Saying that XP is the most stable MS OS is like saying that
asparagus is the most articulate vegetable. (Dave Barry)
 >> Stay informed about: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip? 

Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:

> John Doe wrote:
>> Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> John Doe wrote:

>>>> Their instruction about setting up the UPS is irrelevant to your
>>>> incorrect claim that a UPS should not be plugged into a surge
>>>> suppressor.
>>>
>>> Well, except for their instruction to plug it into the wall.
>>
>> Nobody cares what you do with your UPS.
>
> This was never about my UPS. I didn't ask what to do with my UPS.
> I already did what my manual said to do with my UPS, which was a
> suggestion for whoever else was wondering what to do with his UPS.

Okay then. You aren't warning against plugging a UPS into a surge
suppressor. You're just telling everyone it's OK to plug their UPS
into the wall.














>
>
> --
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> Killing all posts from Google Groups
> The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
>
>
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> From: Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid>
> Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
> Subject: Re: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip?
> Date: 10 Jul 2007 07:48:10 GMT
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 >> Stay informed about: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip? 

On Jul 10, 2:49 pm, Linux Geek <l....DeleteThis@bfosotp.nil> wrote:
> Some manufacturers will not honour warranties if there is a failure and an
> extension cord/power distribution bar of any sort is used in the setup.
> The reason being that many extensions are constructed by the user/owner
> and in many cases do not follow the standards for connector connections
> thus rendering useless any surge protection that may be incorporated in
> the commercial UPS etc.

Read closer some of those fine print warranties. From the wording,
a protector from any other manufacturer in the building may void the
warranty. That warranty is typically chock full of exemptions for
good reason. Warranty need not be honored, but warranty is cited as
'proof' that the protector will do something? When did words from a
lawyer constitute science proof? Nothing in that warranty says
anything about protection. But it does list numerous reasons why the
warranty need not be honored.

What does that protector circuit in a UPS do? Again, where are
manufacturer numbers that define each type of surge and that
protection - with numbers? I keep asking for these specs. Why can no
one provide them? Because those specs do not claim protection as
implied by so many here.

Protector circuit in a UPS is the same protector circuit found in
$10 and in $150 power strip protectors. That circuit will protect
from a type of surge that typically does not cause damage. Therefore
it provides surge protection. Therefore they did not lie. They just
forget to mention: it does not even claim to protect from the type of
surge that typically causes damage.

But again, if you believe the UPS has surge protection, then you
have numbers. Post them. What are those numbers for each type of
surge? Why are same numbers also found in numeric spec sheets for
plug-in protectors? Why? Same circuit.

Remove that circuit from a power strip or UPS. Plug it into the
other receptacle in a duplex power outlet. Protection circuit remains
electrically same. Protector circuit provides exact same protection.
Appreciate how plug-in and UPS protectors are constructed. Appreciate
what manufacturer numerica specs really say. Appreicate why UPS and
power strip protectors have same protection circuits. Appreicate
which type of surges that circuit does and does not protect from.
 >> Stay informed about: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip? 

John Doe wrote:
> Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:
>
>> John Doe wrote:
>>> Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Doe wrote:
>
>>>>> Their instruction about setting up the UPS is irrelevant to your
>>>>> incorrect claim that a UPS should not be plugged into a surge
>>>>> suppressor.
>>>>
>>>> Well, except for their instruction to plug it into the wall.
>>>
>>> Nobody cares what you do with your UPS.
>>
>> This was never about my UPS. I didn't ask what to do with my UPS.
>> I already did what my manual said to do with my UPS, which was a
>> suggestion for whoever else was wondering what to do with his UPS.
>
> Okay then. You aren't warning against plugging a UPS into a surge
> suppressor. You're just telling everyone it's OK to plug their UPS
> into the wall.

From the beginning I've been saying that my UPS manufacturer recommends
plugging the unit into a wall socket and that that's the only place
*that it recommends" in its manual. Your semantic games bore me. They
are not constructive. Have a nice life.


--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
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