image v. backup

Thanks but I think $700 is a little rich for home use.
I already do scheduled backups of individual files every night. My desire
now is to find a way to get up and running quickly after a HD expiration.
Dread the thought of having to reinstall Windows and all other apps from
ground up.
Assuming I backup a HD image to second HD, how do I extract the image on
drive 2 to a new HD?
Can Drive Image reproduce multiple drives (partitions) to another HD?
How do I handle the temp files/swap file?


"CWatters" <colin.watters.TakeThisOut@pandoraBOX.be> wrote in message
news:qQuvb.35778$Tz5.1279036@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
 > As Rod says they are just different types of backup.
 >
 > I prefer "Image backups" to "file backups" because you then know you have
 > just about everything you need to do a full restore if your HD fails. In
 > addition if you just want to restore one file you can usually use a
program
 > that comes with the backup program to extract it.
 >
 > For info... I've just changed from using Ghost to using "Drive Image" from
 > PowerQuest. With DI you can do scheduled "Image backups" and I don't think
 > you can do that with Ghost (at least not easily).
 >
 > I nearly went with v2iProtector from Powerquest but it's overkill for what
I
 > want - might suit your job though?
 >
 > Colin
 >
 > "Old guy" <qaz123*charter.net> wrote in message
 > news:vrsnvoc2crlh72@corp.supernews.com...
  > > I can't seem to unsderstand the differences between
  > > Norton Ghost - claims to make backups
  > > imaging software
  > > regular ol' file backup
  > > Is Ghost a backup app?
  > > how does imaging differ from backup?
  > > how much space does each take (e.g., backing up a 40G drive
takes
  > > another 40G drive)?
  > > I think I know there is software somewhere that can duplicate an
existing
 > HD
  > > in case of disaster. Is there SW to do the following . . .
  > > allow a computer in LA to backup files to a computer in NY using
cable
  > > modem.
  > >
  > > --
  > > Replace the AT in address
  > > Statistics convinces us we are in a minority. Probability convinces us
we
  > > are psychic.
  > >
  > >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: image v. backup 

"CWatters" <colin.watters.TakeThisOut@pandoraBOX.be> wrote in message
news:qQuvb.35778$Tz5.1279036@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
 > As Rod says they are just different types of backup.
 >
 > I prefer "Image backups" to "file backups" because you then know you have
 > just about everything you need to do a full restore if your HD fails. In
 > addition if you just want to restore one file you can usually use a
program
 > that comes with the backup program to extract it.
 >
 > For info... I've just changed from using Ghost to using "Drive Image" from
 > PowerQuest. With DI you can do scheduled "Image backups" and I don't think
 > you can do that with Ghost (at least not easily).
 >
 > I nearly went with v2iProtector from Powerquest but it's overkill for what
I
 > want - might suit your job though?
 >
 > Colin
 >
 >
Hey guys - V2i Protector can be had for $62.75 at Buy.com and maybe for a $
or two less if you shop around. This is only about $12 more than Drive
Image 7, but you get the ability to do incremental imaging and also a bare
metal restore should misfortune strike. I also like the fact that you
restore individual files from the images (although Drive Image 7 can do this
as well).<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: image v. backup 

Old guy <qaz123*charter.net> wrote in message
news:vrsnvoc2crlh72@corp.supernews.com...

 > I can't seem to unsderstand the differences between
 > Norton Ghost - claims to make backups
 > imaging software
 > regular ol' file backup
 > Is Ghost a backup app?

Ghost is one type of backup app.

 > how does imaging differ from backup?

Imaging is one type of backup. It backs up virtually everything
on the drive or partition. The main exception is that the swap file
isnt usually included with some imaging programs like Ghost.

The other approach to backup just backs up files,
doesnt attempt to backup everything on the drive.
And doesnt always backup every file either, you
often choose to just backup files than have changed.

Image backups are easier and quicker to restore from.
But normally take rather longer to do the backup phase,
just because they are putting everything in the image file.

 > how much space does each take (e.g., backing
 > up a 40G drive takes another 40G drive)?

You can use ghost for backup in a couple of different ways.
You can just make a copy of the original drive to another
drive, and in that case the backup drive needs to be big
enough to contain all the FILES on the source. If the original
is say half full, you dont need a 40G drive for the backup.

The other way to use ghost is to create an image file which
may actually be more than just one file. In that case you can
specify whether to compress the image file and the size varys
with how compressible the data is. You'd normally see an
image file of well below 40G with maximum compression,
both because of the compression and because the free
space isnt usually included in the image file.

 > I think I know there is software somewhere that
 > can duplicate an existing HD in case of disaster.

Yep, ghost can do that too.

 > Is there SW to do the following . . .
 > allow a computer in LA to backup files
 > to a computer in NY using cable modem.

Yep, ghost and most decent backup programs can do that.
It wont be that fast tho, even backup over a 100Mb lan is
noticeably slower than with the two drives on the one PC.

Thats one situation where image backups have real downsides.
Its normally much more viable to only backup the files than have
changed since the last backup run over the cable modem, just
to keep the volume down. But that is then harder to restore from.

You wouldnt normally want to move say a
20G image file thru the cable modem too often.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: image v. backup 

Thanks Rod, somewhat clearer. Couple of followups

Imaging - how do I use the image file to recover? Can I recover a whole 80G
HD with an image file?
Exaggerating about the LA to NY backup. More like 500 yards is more
realistic. I would suspect backing up selected files would be best for this
type backup. Imaging and Ghost are more for moving to a new PC or for
infrequent backups?
My fear is a dead HD. I understand (I think) Ghost will create a duplicate
HD so all I do is replace the dead one with it. Correct? I can see how
imaging SW would be similar but unceratain how to uncompress the gigs of
files to have a replacement HD.
Finally, any suggestions on apps similar to Ghost and on imaging SW?


"Rod Speed" <rod_speed RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bplrgk$1pntbb$1@ID-69072.news.uni-berlin.de...
 >
 > Old guy <qaz123*charter.net> wrote in message
 > news:vrsnvoc2crlh72@corp.supernews.com...
 >
  > > I can't seem to unsderstand the differences between
  > > Norton Ghost - claims to make backups
  > > imaging software
  > > regular ol' file backup
  > > Is Ghost a backup app?
 >
 > Ghost is one type of backup app.
 >
  > > how does imaging differ from backup?
 >
 > Imaging is one type of backup. It backs up virtually everything
 > on the drive or partition. The main exception is that the swap file
 > isnt usually included with some imaging programs like Ghost.
 >
 > The other approach to backup just backs up files,
 > doesnt attempt to backup everything on the drive.
 > And doesnt always backup every file either, you
 > often choose to just backup files than have changed.
 >
 > Image backups are easier and quicker to restore from.
 > But normally take rather longer to do the backup phase,
 > just because they are putting everything in the image file.
 >
  > > how much space does each take (e.g., backing
  > > up a 40G drive takes another 40G drive)?
 >
 > You can use ghost for backup in a couple of different ways.
 > You can just make a copy of the original drive to another
 > drive, and in that case the backup drive needs to be big
 > enough to contain all the FILES on the source. If the original
 > is say half full, you dont need a 40G drive for the backup.
 >
 > The other way to use ghost is to create an image file which
 > may actually be more than just one file. In that case you can
 > specify whether to compress the image file and the size varys
 > with how compressible the data is. You'd normally see an
 > image file of well below 40G with maximum compression,
 > both because of the compression and because the free
 > space isnt usually included in the image file.
 >
  > > I think I know there is software somewhere that
  > > can duplicate an existing HD in case of disaster.
 >
 > Yep, ghost can do that too.
 >
  > > Is there SW to do the following . . .
  > > allow a computer in LA to backup files
  > > to a computer in NY using cable modem.
 >
 > Yep, ghost and most decent backup programs can do that.
 > It wont be that fast tho, even backup over a 100Mb lan is
 > noticeably slower than with the two drives on the one PC.
 >
 > Thats one situation where image backups have real downsides.
 > Its normally much more viable to only backup the files than have
 > changed since the last backup run over the cable modem, just
 > to keep the volume down. But that is then harder to restore from.
 >
 > You wouldnt normally want to move say a
 > 20G image file thru the cable modem too often.
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: image v. backup 

Old guy <qaz123*charter.net> wrote in message
news:vrsv39m2iav752@corp.supernews.com...

 > Thanks Rod, somewhat clearer. Couple of followups

 > Imaging - how do I use the image file to recover?

Normally you just restore the image to the replacement
hard drive in the situation where its died, or to the original
drive if say you make an image of the drive before installing
service packs and that goes completely pear shaped and
you want to return to the situaiton just before the service packs.

 > Can I recover a whole 80G HD with an image file?

Yes, if you make sure you put the whole 80G drive
in the image file when you create the image file.

You can put entire physical drives in the image file, or
just some of the partitions on a hard drive in an image file.

 > Exaggerating about the LA to NY backup.
 > More like 500 yards is more realistic.

The distance makes no difference. The problem is that
pumping say a 40G image file thru a cable modem isnt
that viable. Its just too slow, on the upload side.

That op isnt that fast over a 100Mb lan, noticeably
slower than with the two drives on the same PC
and a 100Mb lan is much faster than a cable modem.

 > I would suspect backing up selected files
 > would be best for this type backup.

Yep.

 > Imaging and Ghost are more for moving
 > to a new PC or for infrequent backups?

Or even for frequent backups with the source and
destination on the same PC, say done overnight.

 > My fear is a dead HD.

Yep, thats one of the most important reasons for backup.

 > I understand (I think) Ghost will create a duplicate HD
 > so all I do is replace the dead one with it. Correct?

Yes, you can certainly use Ghost like that. But since recovery
from a dead hard drive isnt that common, I prefer to write an
image file instead, even tho that is a tad slower to restore from
that to the new hard drive if you do have a hard drive failure.

The main advantage of using image files in that situation is
that you can have more than one, so you are protected against
the situation where say you get a virus infection, and have an
auto image creation every night, and you dont notice the
infection until after the imaging has been done. With more
than one image file, you can use the one before the last etc.

 > I can see how imaging SW would be similar but unceratain
 > how to uncompress the gigs of files to have a replacement HD.

You basically just select the restore function in Ghost
when booted off the rescue floppy or the Ghost CD etc.

 > Finally, any suggestions on apps similar to Ghost and on imaging SW?

I prefer Drive Image myself. The user interface is better.
Ghost can be rather counterintuitive for users like you.
It does the job fine, but its not that obvious how to do
some stuff the first time. I normally find that those who
use Ghost have to ask me how to do some stuff.

They dont with Drive Image.

The latest Powerquest product, V2i Protector, will do fully
automatic background incremental backup too, and has
Drive Image included. Main downside is that it will only run
on XP and 2K. Drive Image will run on all modern Win OSs.

You can try 30 day free trials with all of those and see what you like.


 > "Rod Speed" <rod_speed.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
 > news:bplrgk$1pntbb$1@ID-69072.news.uni-berlin.de...
  > >
  > > Old guy <qaz123*charter.net> wrote in message
  > > news:vrsnvoc2crlh72@corp.supernews.com...
  > >
   > > > I can't seem to unsderstand the differences between
   > > > Norton Ghost - claims to make backups
   > > > imaging software
   > > > regular ol' file backup
   > > > Is Ghost a backup app?
  > >
  > > Ghost is one type of backup app.
  > >
   > > > how does imaging differ from backup?
  > >
  > > Imaging is one type of backup. It backs up virtually everything
  > > on the drive or partition. The main exception is that the swap file
  > > isnt usually included with some imaging programs like Ghost.
  > >
  > > The other approach to backup just backs up files,
  > > doesnt attempt to backup everything on the drive.
  > > And doesnt always backup every file either, you
  > > often choose to just backup files than have changed.
  > >
  > > Image backups are easier and quicker to restore from.
  > > But normally take rather longer to do the backup phase,
  > > just because they are putting everything in the image file.
  > >
   > > > how much space does each take (e.g., backing
   > > > up a 40G drive takes another 40G drive)?
  > >
  > > You can use ghost for backup in a couple of different ways.
  > > You can just make a copy of the original drive to another
  > > drive, and in that case the backup drive needs to be big
  > > enough to contain all the FILES on the source. If the original
  > > is say half full, you dont need a 40G drive for the backup.
  > >
  > > The other way to use ghost is to create an image file which
  > > may actually be more than just one file. In that case you can
  > > specify whether to compress the image file and the size varys
  > > with how compressible the data is. You'd normally see an
  > > image file of well below 40G with maximum compression,
  > > both because of the compression and because the free
  > > space isnt usually included in the image file.
  > >
   > > > I think I know there is software somewhere that
   > > > can duplicate an existing HD in case of disaster.
  > >
  > > Yep, ghost can do that too.
  > >
   > > > Is there SW to do the following . . .
   > > > allow a computer in LA to backup files
   > > > to a computer in NY using cable modem.
  > >
  > > Yep, ghost and most decent backup programs can do that.
  > > It wont be that fast tho, even backup over a 100Mb lan is
  > > noticeably slower than with the two drives on the one PC.
  > >
  > > Thats one situation where image backups have real downsides.
  > > Its normally much more viable to only backup the files than have
  > > changed since the last backup run over the cable modem, just
  > > to keep the volume down. But that is then harder to restore from.
  > >
  > > You wouldnt normally want to move say a
  > > 20G image file thru the cable modem too often.
  > >
  > >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: image v. backup 

Imaging software, such as Ghost or DriveImage, can backup in two ways. One
is to copy an entire hard drive to another. It will create the
partition(s), file allocation table(s), and files on the copy. The second
way is to create an image file consisting of the partition structures,
FAT/NTFS file table, and files all rolled up into an image file(s).

A file system oriented backup only backs up the files. You have to create
the partitions, and format these partitions prior to restoration.

An image file typically takes up 1/2 or less space as the original files
themselves did. Additional compression is optional.

There's software that will backup to an internet site and allow restoration
from another computer remotely. Could be a problem if the software writes a
signature to the original drive for restoration purposes.
Dave
"Old guy" <qaz123*charter.net> wrote in message
news:vrsnvoc2crlh72@corp.supernews.com...
 > I can't seem to unsderstand the differences between
 > Norton Ghost - claims to make backups
 > imaging software
 > regular ol' file backup
 > Is Ghost a backup app?
 > how does imaging differ from backup?
 > how much space does each take (e.g., backing up a 40G drive takes
 > another 40G drive)?
 > I think I know there is software somewhere that can duplicate an existing
HD
 > in case of disaster. Is there SW to do the following . . .
 > allow a computer in LA to backup files to a computer in NY using cable
 > modem.
 >
 > --
 > Replace the AT in address
 > Statistics convinces us we are in a minority. Probability convinces us we
 > are psychic.
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: image v. backup 

Old guy <qaz123*charter.net> wrote in message
news:vrt34h7r1stif4@corp.supernews.com...

 > Thanks but I think $700 is a little rich for home use.

Yeah, its not cheap.

 > I already do scheduled backups of individual files every night.
 > My desire now is to find a way to get up and running quickly
 > after a HD expiration. Dread the thought of having to reinstall
 > Windows and all other apps from ground up.

Yeah, thats the main reason for a full image backup,
simplest to restore using one. And if you only do one
every say month, you can always apply those backups
of the important files over that for the time since the
image file was produces.

 > Assuming I backup a HD image to second HD,
 > how do I extract the image on drive 2 to a new HD?

Just boot the rescue floppy or distribution CD.
Select the restore option and wait while it happens.

 > Can Drive Image reproduce multiple
 > drives (partitions) to another HD?

Yes, both DI and Ghost can do that.

 > How do I handle the temp files/swap file?

Just ignore it and let the program worry about it.

Ghost doesnt bother to put it the swap file in the image file.
DI does include it, but the image file is still smaller than the
one Ghost produces when imaging the same drive.


 > "CWatters" <colin.watters.DeleteThis@pandoraBOX.be> wrote in message
 > news:qQuvb.35778$Tz5.1279036@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
  > > As Rod says they are just different types of backup.
  > >
  > > I prefer "Image backups" to "file backups" because you then know you have
  > > just about everything you need to do a full restore if your HD fails. In
  > > addition if you just want to restore one file you can usually use a
 > program
  > > that comes with the backup program to extract it.
  > >
  > > For info... I've just changed from using Ghost to using "Drive Image" from
  > > PowerQuest. With DI you can do scheduled "Image backups" and I don't think
  > > you can do that with Ghost (at least not easily).
  > >
  > > I nearly went with v2iProtector from Powerquest but it's overkill for what
 > I
  > > want - might suit your job though?
  > >
  > > Colin
  > >
  > > "Old guy" <qaz123*charter.net> wrote in message
  > > news:vrsnvoc2crlh72@corp.supernews.com...
   > > > I can't seem to unsderstand the differences between
   > > > Norton Ghost - claims to make backups
   > > > imaging software
   > > > regular ol' file backup
   > > > Is Ghost a backup app?
   > > > how does imaging differ from backup?
   > > > how much space does each take (e.g., backing up a 40G drive
 > takes
   > > > another 40G drive)?
   > > > I think I know there is software somewhere that can duplicate an
 > existing
  > > HD
   > > > in case of disaster. Is there SW to do the following . . .
   > > > allow a computer in LA to backup files to a computer in NY using
 > cable
   > > > modem.
   > > >
   > > > --
   > > > Replace the AT in address
   > > > Statistics convinces us we are in a minority. Probability convinces us
 > we
   > > > are psychic.
   > > >
   > > >
  > >
  > >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: image v. backup 

Lil' Dave <spamyourself DeleteThis @virus.net> wrote in message
news:bNKvb.11327$yM6.6599@lakeread06...

 > Imaging software, such as Ghost or DriveImage, can backup in two
 > ways. One is to copy an entire hard drive to another. It will create the
 > partition(s), file allocation table(s), and files on the copy. The second
 > way is to create an image file consisting of the partition structures,
 > FAT/NTFS file table, and files all rolled up into an image file(s).

 > A file system oriented backup only backs up the files. You have to
 > create the partitions, and format these partitions prior to restoration.

No you dont. If you create an image file of the physical drive with both
Drive Image and Ghost, you can just restore that image file to the
new drive and they will do all the partitioning and formatting required.

They will with say a separate image file for each partition too.

 > An image file typically takes up 1/2 or less space as the original
 > files themselves did. Additional compression is optional.

 > There's software that will backup to an internet site and allow restoration
 > from another computer remotely. Could be a problem if the software
 > writes a signature to the original drive for restoration purposes.


 > "Old guy" <qaz123*charter.net> wrote in message
 > news:vrsnvoc2crlh72@corp.supernews.com...
  > > I can't seem to unsderstand the differences between
  > > Norton Ghost - claims to make backups
  > > imaging software
  > > regular ol' file backup
  > > Is Ghost a backup app?
  > > how does imaging differ from backup?
  > > how much space does each take (e.g., backing up a 40G drive takes
  > > another 40G drive)?
  > > I think I know there is software somewhere that can duplicate an existing
 > HD
  > > in case of disaster. Is there SW to do the following . . .
  > > allow a computer in LA to backup files to a computer in NY using cable
  > > modem.
  > >
  > > --
  > > Replace the AT in address
  > > Statistics convinces us we are in a minority. Probability convinces us we
  > > are psychic.
  > >
  > >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: image v. backup