To misfit: I'm hungry!

UCLAN wrote:
> ~misfit~ wrote:
>
> > > I gave you your requested info. Where's my meal?
> >
> > I'm sure I was the last to post in the thread?
> >
> > Anyway, after your anecdote about the <forgets name of American
> > 'sport'> thing I wasn't sure it'd be productive to further discuss
> > certain aspects of the AC, specifically the appeal. Especially as
> > I've found out quite a bit more about that.
>
> You asked me questions about the protest (not an appeal) and promised
> a dinner if the protest talked about the crewman's leg. I posted a
> great deal directly from the protest that basically earned me that
> dinner. It is stored at Google Groups if you wish to read it.
>
> Message-ID: <81nhi.542067$6P2.238064@newsfe16.phx>
>
> 175 lines so get comfortable.

Apologies. It didn't make it to my ISP's news server. I just read it via
Google. You like your steak the same way I do. Shame I haven't had one for
while, I'll share my 2-minute noodles with you though. <g>

You're right, I was wrong, it was about the kick. And make no mistake, the
sail was kicked to make it release from the lock. Most people who say the
incident agree. NZTV (based in Valencia) was showing a replay of it after
the jury decision and an AC representative instructed the director to cut
the replay just after Pieter Van Nieuwenhuyzen spread his arms. He actually
stopped the footage being re-shown. Why would he do that one wonders? I have
it on tape as i wanted to re-view the insident. Just before the kick it cut
back to the studio and caught the commentator unawares. He said that it'd
happened because the director had been given instructions to stop the replay
and mused, wondered if we'd ever see the footage again.

As for your comment about one of the jury being a New Zealander, once again
you're being disingenuous. Brad Butterworth is a New Zealander, does that
mean he would agree with a TNZ protest? There's no doubt about it, there's
been a cover-up. The idea of being able to drop the mast without a man aloft
is a safety issue right? Surely then Alinghi's asking for permission to put
a man aloft so he could attach the spinnaker halyard to the mainsail as an
uncontrolled drop could be dangerous shows that their emergency mainsail
drop wouldn't *be* safe.

Ho-hum.

> > Race 6 was a nail-biter. Came down to whoever picked the right
> > side, either by "reading" the weather (pretty had to do accurately
> > in those conditions) or by luck.
>
> Consensus was that Dean Barker tacked before TNZ was back to full
> speed on the second windward leg. He could even be heard saying
> "Sorry, guys" to his crew. Alinghi took the lead, and held on to it
> on the last leeward leg. Butterworth's decision not to match TNZ's
> last jibe to port was also mentioned. He increased the lead to back
> over 100 meters, where he had been losing about 25 meters per jibe.

Yeah, that symetrical spinnaker was a beauty to jibe compred with Alinghi
doing their usual outside jibe in fairly light winds. Funny that they
persist with that when all the syndicates in the LV cup were doing inside
jibes in conditions under about 8-9 knots as it proved to be several seconds
quicker than floating the kite out and around.

Oh, did you know what damaged the kite that blew out? TNZ had just had a new
coat of non-slip paint put on the foredeck and it was friction against that
which caused the initial hole.

> > > TNZ has a couple of days to think it over.
> >
> > IMO there's nothing really to think over. It's just go out there
> > and race.
>
> I'm sure a lot of "shoulda" and "coulda" thoughts are going through
> their heads. I'm sure that the TNZ brain trust would rather be out
> racing rather than thinking of the misfortune for two days.

It's a tough call to have to win three in a row. Oh well, either way, both
boats are skippered by a New Zealander so, in a way, we win whatever the
outcome. <g>
--
Shaun.
 >> Stay informed about: To misfit: I'm hungry! 

~misfit~ wrote:

> You're right, I was wrong, it was about the kick. And make no mistake, the
> sail was kicked to make it release from the lock. Most people who say the
> incident agree.

"Most people" ? Or "most people" in New Zealand? Methinks you are
getting too much of a NZ slant on this incident. Outside of your
comments, I have seen no cries of a bad decision by The Jury, and
certainly no cries of a cover-up.

> NZTV (based in Valencia) was showing a replay of it after
> the jury decision and an AC representative instructed the director to cut
> the replay just after Pieter Van Nieuwenhuyzen spread his arms. He actually
> stopped the footage being re-shown.

And this is according to whom? And confirmed by whom?

> As for your comment about one of the jury being a New Zealander, once again
> you're being disingenuous.

No, just realistic. You are claiming that your theory is valid based
upon the non-unanimous vote of The Jury. I am merely pointing out that
since The Jury contains a New Zealander, your claim is not necessarily
valid. Having both a Kiwi and a Swiss official on The Jury just about
guarantees all the protests will have non-unanimous votes.

> Brad Butterworth is a New Zealander, does that
> mean he would agree with a TNZ protest?

Brad Butterworth was hired by the opposition. Same as Chris Dickson.
They both have different loyalties now. Graham McKenzie has no such
loyalty dilemmas.

Are you suggesting that Graham McKenzie voted against the protest?
And maybe Switzerland's Henry Peter voted in favor?

> There's no doubt about it, there's
> been a cover-up.

There's plenty of doubt about it outside New Zealand. NOT ONE news
organization outside of NZ has even mentioned the possibility of a
cover-up. And even inside NZ, the theory of cover up is far from
widespread. [NZ media is easily accessible via the Internet.]

The great AC cover-up, right along side the lunar landing cover-up,
the "grassy knoll" theorists, the 9/11 conspiracy wackos, and even
the "Amazing Race producers intervened" whiners. And about something
that had ZERO to do about the races themselves.

> Ho-hum.

My feelings, too.

> Oh, did you know what damaged the kite that blew out? TNZ had just had a new
> coat of non-slip paint put on the foredeck and it was friction against that
> which caused the initial hole.

Considering the fragile nature of the sails (in the name of reducing
weight), one could cause havoc with a well placed pellet gun or even
a slingshot in the spectator fleet. Talk about your conspiracies!

> It's a tough call to have to win three in a row. Oh well, either way, both
> boats are skippered by a New Zealander so, in a way, we win whatever the
> outcome. <g>

The winning boat will have a US sailor at the helm. <g>

--
GO ALINGHI! Beat the Kiwis.
 >> Stay informed about: To misfit: I'm hungry! 

~misfit~ wrote:

>>"Most people" ? Or "most people" in New Zealand? Methinks you are
>>getting too much of a NZ slant on this incident. Outside of your
>>comments, I have seen no cries of a bad decision by The Jury, and
>>certainly no cries of a cover-up.
>
> Most people interviewed by the TVNZ crew in Valencia. They say that, fair
> enough, it wasn't upheld, but that there was certainly a case to answer.
> Obviously there are certain things that they can't say,

Hmmm...trying to decipher that last sentence. Who are these people
that can't say something. Are these spectators, or participants?
Crew members or support staff? From NZ? From where? Odd that no other
media besides TVNZ found these people.

>>>NZTV (based in Valencia) was showing a replay of it after
>>>the jury decision and an AC representative instructed the director
>>>to cut the replay just after Pieter Van Nieuwenhuyzen spread his
>>>arms. He actually stopped the footage being re-shown.
>>
>>And this is according to whom? And confirmed by whom?
>
> Acording to the anchor in the TVNZ studio who was live on-air when it
> happened.

The anchor said that an AC rep came into the studio and prohibited them
from completing the replay? TVNZ has lousy security if they let anyone
into their studio.

> The replay was cut off and the feed went back to the studio. I
> have it on VHS, (I don't think I've taped over it..) if you like I can try
> to put it on DVD, then rip it to Xvid and put it somewhere for you to watch?

You have on VHS an AC official telling TVNZ to stop showing a replay?

> Grrr! Just checked and I left the tape in after looking at it last night
> before replying to you, I taped a BBC world programme overnight over it.
> (Click) No, I'm not a liar, but say what you will. From your previous
> comments I expect some derogatory comparison....

Shucks. I thought I'd have a DVD of A) TVNZ's security allowing a non
employee into their control bay, and B) the same individual telling
TVNZ what they can and cannot show on their program.

>>Brad Butterworth was hired by the opposition. Same as Chris Dickson.
>>They both have different loyalties now. Graham McKenzie has no such
>>loyalty dilemmas.
>
> They say that you can tell a lot about a person by the way the judges
> others. It's obvious that you think that it's inconcievable that Graham
> McKenzie voted against the protest because of where he was born. That
> there's no way he could have voted the other way.

Not what I said. I said *your* claim that the protest must have had
merit because "one or two of the jury members agreed" with you is not
a realistic claim since the Jury had a NZ member. Whether Mr. McKenzie
is fair and impartial is irrelevant. Over the last 4 or so ACs, you can
count on one hand the number of times a Jury member has voted against
his own country. Did it happen this time? Dunno, but I really doubt it.

>>Are you suggesting that Graham McKenzie voted against the protest?
>>And maybe Switzerland's Henry Peter voted in favor?
>
> Exactly! Unless I get this whole jury concept wrong. Is it supposed to be an
> impartial international jury or a group of advocates? If the former then,
> yes, the scenario you posit is quite feasible. If the latter then you're
> probably right.

The same as any jury. Listen to the evidence provided, decide who you
believe and who you don't, and issue a verdict based upon the law (or
in this case, the rules.) The BIG difference is two of these jury
members have to fly home and live with one of the sides. Makes their
decision on who to believe a little less straight forward. Why they
have residents of the competing countries on the jury is the big
question.

> The NZ media aren't stupid. As the stopping of the replay coverage showed,
> if you don't play the game with the AC officials you get cut off. They
> didn't come right out and say that there was a cover-up, they just presented
> a lot of evidence and allowed the viewer to make up his own mind. I'm not
> talking about internet or print media here, I'm talking about the grew in
> Valencia, the live TV broadcast.

I'm talking about ANY media: TV, radio, newspaper, magazine, ANYTHING.
Usually a good conspiracy theory is not as stealth as is this one. And
until you get a little more specific than "as the stopping of the replay
coverage showed" (I still would like to know what YOU actually saw), I
will be very slow to warm to this one.

As you stated earlier, just the facts please.

> In the post that I didn't see here, that I Googled, you said:
>
> "The US television gets the same pool audio and video feeds as everyone
> else. It would be a mess if each country fitted the yachts with their own
> cameras and microphones. We hear (and see) the course change announcements,
> as well as the acknowledgments. Our commentators vary from day to day, but
> Peter Isler is there every day, Paul Cayard spent a day or two there, there
> are two commentators in a boat following the action, and interviews with
> crew members of various AC teams."
>
> Obviously you don't realise then that you're wrong. Yes, we probably all get
> the same feeds off the boats.

That was what I was relating.

> However, do you have a large chunk of the
> commentary done by Peter (PJ) Montgomery and guest presenter (for the last
> four races it's been Jimmy Spithill, previously it's been many folks,
> including Torvin Graele (sp?) and Russel Coutts (sp?)) from on-board the
> boat Northstar? Is your commentary team lead by John MacBeth? Do you see and
> hear PJ putting in cellphone calls to Peter (Luigi) Reggio (the guy who sets
> the course etc) and getting information from him? (They're obviously
> friends, they call each other "PJ" and "Luigi").

Our main "celebrity" commentator is Peter Isler, veteran of many ACs and
victor in two. He is a long time friend of "Luigi". In fact, he went to
college with him and sailed with him then and many times since. As I
wrote above, Paul Cayard was the guest commentator for one or two races,
and there have been others as well (I didn't know it was necessary to
keep a list.) Two other commentators (I haven't paid attention to who
they are, but one is an Aussie) follow the action in a boat. And yes,
we get Reggio's explanations of on water foul rulings once the action
calms down. As far as watching "PJ" dialing his cellphone, we are
spared that splendor. Luigi probably calls us. And the relevance of
all of this is...???

> The answer is no, I'll provide it for you in case this is one of the parts
> of my message that you snip. We get a different feed from the rest of the
> world. Some of the footage of the race is obviously the same but the
> commentators are different and the sections where they cut to Northstar are,
> I think, exclusive to NZ. I could be wrong about that last part. Have you
> had Jimmy Spithill commentating?

Yes, the commentators are different. The on-the-water commentators
use different boats, too. I'm still waiting for an explanation of the
relevance of this. The NZ station has it's own commentators? Well,
congratulations! [We probably couldn't understand what they were
saying, anyway.]

> They interviewed a whole bunch of folks, including the international
> commentary team. Apparently a NZ guy on the international English-speaking
> commentary team has been "warned" about his comments about the protest.

Apparently? What did he say in that regard? And why the NZ guy?

> These guys obviously can't speak their minds and, as the replay being pulled
> showed, can't broadcast what they want to either.

Yes, the AC Committee has such power that TVNZ's own website didn't
even mention the incident, or anything about a cover-up.

> Once again you resort to subtle argumentum ad hominem. It does you no
> favours.

I just find it curious that you tell me "The facts only please", but
insist that believers of this cover-up are being silenced by the AC
Committee somehow. I had no idea that they had that much influence
on the world's print media.

>>>Oh, did you know what damaged the kite that blew out? TNZ had just
>>>had a new coat of non-slip paint put on the foredeck and it was
>>>friction against that which caused the initial hole.
>>
>>Considering the fragile nature of the sails (in the name of reducing
>>weight), one could cause havoc with a well placed pellet gun or even
>>a slingshot in the spectator fleet. Talk about your conspiracies!
>
> Why do you insist on this innuendo? I'm not talking about a conspiracy. TNZ
> had the bow section of the boat painted and anti-slip coated the night
> before the spinnaker blew out. In their de-brief and investigation they
> examined the blown sail and, from the scuffing of the sail and the position
> of the initial hole their shore crew concluded that they new, rough
> anti-slip coating combined with the speed that the sail was hoisted caused
> the sail to be holed and subsequently blow out.
>
> Conspiracy? What are you on? If your argument isn't good enough to stand on
> it's own without incessant references to anecdotes about horses and JFK then
> that says a lot in itself.

???

Relax. Sit back, take a deep breath, remove your sense of humor from
that bag you keep it in, and re-read what I wrote. There...feel better
now? Methinks you need to catch-up on your sleep.

Weather for Tuesday:

Starts south southeasterly 10-12 knots early in the afternoon then
builds to 13-15 knots and backs to southeast. Later in the afternoon
continues to build 15-16 knots as the direction returns to south southeast.

Looks like spotting the shifts will have utmost importance.

[I don't *think* you can read anything sinister into that.]

--
GO ALINGHI! Beat the Kiwis.
 >> Stay informed about: To misfit: I'm hungry! 

UCLAN wrote:
> ~misfit~ wrote:

> > Acording to the anchor in the TVNZ studio who was live on-air when
> > it happened.
>
> The anchor said that an AC rep came into the studio and prohibited
> them from completing the replay? TVNZ has lousy security if they let
> anyone into their studio.

No. The NZ anchor listened to his earpiece after the surprise cut-off and
said "Well, that's interesting" the local director who they were getting
their feed from had been told to not play it again just as he was halfway
through replaying the kicking incident.

> Shucks. I thought I'd have a DVD of A) TVNZ's security allowing a non
> employee into their control bay, and B) the same individual telling
> TVNZ what they can and cannot show on their program.

Ha ha ha haa haaa!!!! Found my humour. Funny, normally I don't have to go
looking for it, it finds me if something is amusing.
--
Shaun.
 >> Stay informed about: To misfit: I'm hungry! 

CBFalconer wrote:
> ~misfit~ wrote:
> > UCLAN wrote:
> > > ~misfit~ wrote:
> >
> > > > Acording to the anchor in the TVNZ studio who was live on-air
> > > > when it happened.
> > >
> > > The anchor said that an AC rep came into the studio and prohibited
> > > them from completing the replay? TVNZ has lousy security if they
> > > let anyone into their studio.
> >
> > No. The NZ anchor listened to his earpiece after the surprise
> > cut-off and said "Well, that's interesting" the local director who
> > they were getting their feed from had been told to not play it
> > again just as he was halfway through replaying the kicking incident.
> >
> > > Shucks. I thought I'd have a DVD of A) TVNZ's security allowing a
> > > non employee into their control bay, and B) the same individual
> > > telling TVNZ what they can and cannot show on their program.
> >
> > Ha ha ha haa haaa!!!! Found my humour. Funny, normally I don't have
> > to go looking for it, it finds me if something is amusing.
>
> This thread has been quite interesting (got no complaints) but
> highly off-topic here. I trust it is going to come to an early end
> now that the races are complete.

Hey CB,

Yeah, highly off-topic. I did preface my first comment with an apology to
the group and never expected the discussion to go on this long. My main
reason for posting was I found it strange that someone would put "Beat the
Kiwis" in their sig (turned out with two different teams). I'm familiar with
supporting a team but it seems odd to me that someone would openly back
whoever was running against the Kiwis. That's not support, it's the
opposite. Odd behaviour unless one is holding a grudge for some reason.
<shrug>

Anyway, yeah, I expect it's about done now.

That last race was a nail-biter though, it would have to be a classic, a
margin of between 1 and 2 seconds *after* TNZ completed a penalty turn. The
lead changed more often than I've ever seen in a LV/AC race.

Cheers mate,
--
Shaun.
 >> Stay informed about: To misfit: I'm hungry! 

~misfit~ wrote:

> Yeah, highly off-topic. I did preface my first comment with an apology to
> the group and never expected the discussion to go on this long. My main
> reason for posting was I found it strange that someone would put "Beat the
> Kiwis" in their sig (turned out with two different teams). I'm familiar with
> supporting a team but it seems odd to me that someone would openly back
> whoever was running against the Kiwis. That's not support, it's the
> opposite. Odd behaviour unless one is holding a grudge for some reason.
> <shrug>

As explained *much* earlier, my reason was *not* a dislike of the Kiwis,
per se, but a hope that the competition would *not* return to NZ in
general, or the Hauraki Gulf in particular.

> That last race was a nail-biter though, it would have to be a classic, a
> margin of between 1 and 2 seconds *after* TNZ completed a penalty turn. The
> lead changed more often than I've ever seen in a LV/AC race.

I hope Dean Barker found his sense of humor. He's gonna need it. His
decision to not duck below Alinghi just before the last windward mark
was crucial, considering how well his boat fared in the first leeward
leg. That and doing his penalty turn about two boat lengths too soon.

Even a 160 degree wind shift couldn't save him.

--
THANKS ALINGHI! You *beat* the Kiwis!
 >> Stay informed about: To misfit: I'm hungry! 

UCLAN wrote:
> ~misfit~ wrote:
>
> > Yeah, highly off-topic. I did preface my first comment with an
> > apology to the group and never expected the discussion to go on
> > this long. My main reason for posting was I found it strange that
> > someone would put "Beat the Kiwis" in their sig (turned out with
> > two different teams). I'm familiar with supporting a team but it
> > seems odd to me that someone would openly back whoever was running
> > against the Kiwis. That's not support, it's the opposite. Odd
> > behaviour unless one is holding a grudge for some reason. <shrug>
>
> As explained *much* earlier, my reason was *not* a dislike of the
> Kiwis, per se, but a hope that the competition would *not* return to
> NZ in general, or the Hauraki Gulf in particular.

Methinks their maybe something wrong with usenet twixt thou and I.

I didn't remember you saying that at all (and my remember usually works
quite well). So I just trotted over to Google and saw the post, the last in
the thread renamed to "OT: Boat Races". It never made it to my news server,
hence I never replied to it. It was the one where you admitted that you were
wrong (yeah, right!) about saying repeatedly that TNZ got _most_ of it's
money from Emirates after I had to write a huge post explaining how
sponsorship worked. I thought that the lack of a (received) reply was just
your reaction to being proved wrong. I was incorrect, you had other tactics
for that.

(You brushed it off with "I should have used a different word....
Semantics". Umm, yeah, words and phrases have particular meanings,
especially simple ones like "most of". [BTW, it means 'more than half'
<shrug> I thought most 8 year-olds knew that.] I find it ironic that you
said "Semantics." when *that* word means "the study of meanings". When
you're being challenged on the usage of a word over several posts you'd
think that you'd be *sure* of what you were saying rather than try to make
out it was "semantics" when you're proven wrong. Still, you can get the
measure of a man by how he reacts to proof of his fallability. Some admit
they're wrong, others try to wriggle out of it.)

TTFN,
--
Shaun.
 >> Stay informed about: To misfit: I'm hungry! 

~misfit~ wrote:

> When
> you're being challenged on the usage of a word over several posts you'd
> think that you'd be *sure* of what you were saying rather than try to make
> out it was "semantics" when you're proven wrong. Still, you can get the
> measure of a man by how he reacts to proof of his fallability. Some admit
> they're wrong, others try to wriggle out of it.)

Funny, but I was never "proven" wrong. You have not provided any sort of
proof that the original statement was wrong, regardless of semantics.
At worst, I failed to provide proof that my assertion was correct using
my original choice use of words. For you to claim I was *proven wrong*
is simply not correct.

> (You brushed it off with "I should have used a different word....
> Semantics". Umm, yeah, words and phrases have particular meanings,
> especially simple ones like "most of". [BTW, it means 'more than half'
> <shrug> I thought most 8 year-olds knew that.]

I suggest you grab a dictionary. My Websters says:

most /moʊst/
–adjective, superl. of much or many with more as compar. 1. in the
greatest quantity, amount, measure, degree, or number: to win the most
votes.

So your insistence that "most" means "more than half" is blatantly
incorrect as well. As I suggested: semantics.

Try for an 0-3 day?
 >> Stay informed about: To misfit: I'm hungry! 

"~misfit~" wrote:
> CBFalconer wrote:
>
>> This thread has been quite interesting (got no complaints) but
>> highly off-topic here. I trust it is going to come to an early end
>> now that the races are complete.
>
> Hey CB,
>
> Yeah, highly off-topic. I did preface my first comment with an apology to
> the group and never expected the discussion to go on this long. My main
> reason for posting was I found it strange that someone would put "Beat the
> Kiwis" in their sig (turned out with two different teams). I'm familiar
> with supporting a team but it seems odd to me that someone would openly
> back whoever was running against the Kiwis. That's not support, it's the
> opposite. Odd behaviour unless one is holding a grudge for some reason.
> <shrug>
>
> Anyway, yeah, I expect it's about done now.

I, for one, was not the least bit disturbed by this thread. )

Jon
 >> Stay informed about: To misfit: I'm hungry! 

Jon Danniken wrote:
> "~misfit~" wrote:
> > CBFalconer wrote:
> >
> > > This thread has been quite interesting (got no complaints) but
> > > highly off-topic here. I trust it is going to come to an early
> > > end now that the races are complete.
> >
> > Hey CB,
> >
> > Yeah, highly off-topic. I did preface my first comment with an
> > apology to the group and never expected the discussion to go on
> > this long. My main reason for posting was I found it strange that
> > someone would put "Beat the Kiwis" in their sig (turned out with
> > two different teams). I'm familiar with supporting a team but it
> > seems odd to me that someone would openly back whoever was running
> > against the Kiwis. That's not support, it's the opposite. Odd
> > behaviour unless one is holding a grudge for some reason. <shrug>
> >
> > Anyway, yeah, I expect it's about done now.
>
> I, for one, was not the least bit disturbed by this thread. )

Thanks Jon, good to hear it. I'd hate to upset the gang. I figured that most
people here are not shy in coming forward if they think our group is being
abused so thought there might be a few readers, or tolerant folks.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.
 >> Stay informed about: To misfit: I'm hungry!