trackball use

<spacemarine RemoveThis @mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:1179266761.376543.237220@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>i am trying out a used Microsoft Trackball Explorer, which ive read
> many positive reviews about. previously ive used a logitech thumb-
> trackball for many months (i know those bother some people, but i
> didnt mind it because it allowed my wrist to lay flat, like a normal
> mouse, rather than requiring "propping up" like some of the larger
> trackball units).
>
> i like the trackball explorer's low profile, allowing for a flatter
> wrist.
>
> in my first day of use, i see the same problem that i had w/ the
> logitech -- in order to get good ground-covering rolls, i set the
> sensitivity to medium or high. but that makes the point very *jumpy*
> at small movements. i can lower it, but further hampering precision is
> the ball's rolling resistance -- it seems to stick every-so-slightly
> when attempting very small movements.. then it will unstick and jump.
> it doesnt appear like its defective or anything..it feels like its
> inherant to the nature of the device.
>
> anyone have thoughts, suggestions, etc?
>
>
> thanks
> sm
>

I use a MS Trackball Optical 1.0 and I remember
having to give the ball a sharp tap to set the support
pins in a little, in order to get it rolling smoothly.
( Take all Internet advice as, "to be applied at your
own risk".)

My only problem with this one is the occasional hair
that gets drawn into the laser path, causing an erratic
response. Then I have to pop out the ball and fish
the hair out, easier than it sounds.

I had to do a lot more to maintain my Logitech
Marbles, and keep them rolling smoothly.

Luck;
Ken
 >> Stay informed about: trackball use 

Vanguard wrote:

> <spacemarine DeleteThis @mailinator.com> wrote in message
> news:1179266761.376543.237220@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>i am trying out a used Microsoft Trackball Explorer, which ive read
>> many positive reviews about. previously ive used a logitech thumb-
>> trackball for many months (i know those bother some people, but i
>> didnt mind it because it allowed my wrist to lay flat, like a normal
>> mouse, rather than requiring "propping up" like some of the larger
>> trackball units).
>>
>> i like the trackball explorer's low profile, allowing for a flatter
>> wrist.
>>
>> in my first day of use, i see the same problem that i had w/ the
>> logitech -- in order to get good ground-covering rolls, i set the
>> sensitivity to medium or high. but that makes the point very *jumpy*
>> at small movements. i can lower it, but further hampering precision is
>> the ball's rolling resistance -- it seems to stick every-so-slightly
>> when attempting very small movements.. then it will unstick and jump.
>> it doesnt appear like its defective or anything..it feels like its
>> inherant to the nature of the device.
>>
>> anyone have thoughts, suggestions, etc?
>>
>>
>> thanks
>> sm
>>
>
>
> Tis the problem when using friction bearings instead of ball bearings.
> I've tried several trackballs and found almost all of them way too
> sticky for very small movement. You're trying to move a pixel, the ball
> doesn't move or it slides over the roller without moving the roller, and
> then all of a sudden it moves and you move way too far. If the
> application allows, zoom in to overcompensate for the lack of low
> granularity in the trackball's movement. Changing the acceleration
> doesn't help because when trying to move a single pixel there is very
> little physical acceleration to dampen its logical acceleration.
>
> Probably the best is the Kensington trackball with its ball bearing
> pivots but it probably incurs the "lift" that you mention due to the
> size of the ball (note that not all Kensinton trackballs have ball
> bearing pivots; I don't like their Orbit trackball as it has cheap
> roller bearings and has more resistance, and I'm not sure their latest
> ExpertMouse still uses ball bearings). Even then and with a brand new
> Kensington ball-bearing trackball, you can still realize the "jump" at
> extremely small movement. I haven't heard of any that use air jets to
> constantly float the ball (so there is no friction other than maybe with
> the air) and use LEDs to detect movement of the ball. So zooming in so
> you can use larger movements of the ball is probably your best bet for
> extremely fine [logical] movement.
>
> I liked some of the designs of the Logitech but found their balls had
> too much friction and their ball was too lightweight. I'm used to
> giving a shove to the ball and have it spin on its own (i.e., low
> friction). An advantage with the Kensington is that I can go to a
> billiards supplier and get a snooker ball to replace the ball if it gets
> scratched or lost (kids will take anything).

what logitec trackball were you using i have been using the trackman for
five years with out any problems
 >> Stay informed about: trackball use 

On May 15, 10:44 pm, "Vanguard" <n....DeleteThis@mail.invalid> wrote:

> Probably the best is the Kensington trackball with its ball bearing
> pivots but it probably incurs the "lift" that you mention due to the
> size of the ball (note that not all Kensinton trackballs have ball
> bearing pivots; I don't like their Orbit trackball as it has cheap
> roller bearings and has more resistance, and I'm not sure their latest
> ExpertMouse still uses ball bearings).

interesting. heres what one reviewer said about their latest expert
mouse:

"For the first hour or so, the Expert Mouse was a little on the stiff
side. Lifting the ball out, I notice that the ball rolls on tiny mini
wheels. After the first hour, the stiffness is gone, and it rolls
almost effortlessly"

....wheels. hmm. i may try to find one and give it a shot.


thanks,
sm
 >> Stay informed about: trackball use 

"darklight" wrote in message
news:FOOdndivEuDqJ9fbnZ2dnUVZ8silnZ2d@bt.com...
> what logitec trackball were you using i have been using the trackman
> for
> five years with out any problems
>


Pick one, any one. Logitech's have too much friction - for MY taste.
None of them can you slap the ball and have it spin on its own for more
than maybe a quarter rotation.
 >> Stay informed about: trackball use 

"Vanguard" <no.DeleteThis@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:WtmdnTgSl6aGP9bbnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> "darklight" wrote in message
> news:FOOdndivEuDqJ9fbnZ2dnUVZ8silnZ2d@bt.com...
>> what logitec trackball were you using i have been using the trackman for
>> five years with out any problems
>>
>
>
> Pick one, any one. Logitech's have too much friction - for MY taste. None
> of them can you slap the ball and have it spin on its own for more than
> maybe a quarter rotation.
>

Most users would probably settle for a smooth operating
pointer, without any jerkiness and a good resolution. What
possible use is a free spinning pointer? A certain amount of
resistance is helpful for fine control.

( And I think this is the wrong NG to be talking about
slapping your balls around.)

Luck;
Ken
 >> Stay informed about: trackball use 

Vanguard wrote:

> "darklight" wrote in message
> news:FOOdndivEuDqJ9fbnZ2dnUVZ8silnZ2d@bt.com...
>> what logitec trackball were you using i have been using the trackman
>> for
>> five years with out any problems
>>
>
>
> Pick one, any one. Logitech's have too much friction - for MY taste.
> None of them can you slap the ball and have it spin on its own for more
> than maybe a quarter rotation.

my track ball spins i can spin it so the pointer can travel from one end of
the screen to the other i have been using it for five years.
I have a 17" widescreen
 >> Stay informed about: trackball use 

"Ken Maltby" <kmaltby DeleteThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:fpKdneqxZ6jG-9HbnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> "Vanguard" <no DeleteThis @mail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:WtmdnTgSl6aGP9bbnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> "darklight" wrote in message
>> news:FOOdndivEuDqJ9fbnZ2dnUVZ8silnZ2d@bt.com...
>>> what logitec trackball were you using i have been using the trackman
>>> for
>>> five years with out any problems
>>>
>>
>>
>> Pick one, any one. Logitech's have too much friction - for MY taste.
>> None of them can you slap the ball and have it spin on its own for
>> more than maybe a quarter rotation.
>>
>
> Most users would probably settle for a smooth operating
> pointer, without any jerkiness and a good resolution. What
> possible use is a free spinning pointer?

Less resistance to movement means less effort to move it to start with
and after friction reduces after movement starts (but with a far less
drop-off in the after-movement-starts friction).

Gee, now why would a ball that keeps spinning after letting go have a
use? Could it be, say, um, games? For moving a cursor around a fixed
size screen, the original mouse that was made out of a block of wood,
nails, and a ping-pong ball would do. Now try having to keep lifting
your finger to keep shoving the ball (or mouse) to move forward through
an infinite axis that has no physical barrier, like the fixed size of
"screen". Even if all the ball did was turn you in a direction, it
certainly is easier to spin the ball than have to move with your fingers
only to realize that you didn't rotate far enough and have to push the
ball again rather than spin it and then lay your fingers down when you
want the turning to stop.

But then some people claim that they like heavier wireless mice than the
lighter corded ones although their mouse never leaves the confines of
the mouse pad or its equivalent area. Maybe some slow-typing users
prefer keyboards with much stiffer springs or membranes that require
harder pushing. From what I read in the OP's post, he didn't like even
what you might think is the minimal friction that is inherent in that
trackball. There are *smoother* trackballs. I don't recall talking to
anyone before that would equate smoother with more resistance.

> A certain amount of
> resistance is helpful for fine control.

No such thing as a no-resistance trackball, even if it were floating on
jets of air. Note that the larger ball with more mass (and along with
less resistance) would also tend to keep in motion.

I'm sure Ajax would provide finer granularity in moving a wet rag across
your television screen but you won't like the results. I do computers
all day and evening. I don't dig ditches so I don't have tight muscles
and the incumbent problem of reduced dexterity or granularity in fine
movement control. But I am getting older and the joints more stiff plus
more wise as to where and when I want to expend my energies, and mice or
trackballs with the *least* friction is my preference. However, I'm not
yet planning to implant a BMI into my brain so I only have to think
about doing movement control in the computer.

> ( And I think this is the wrong NG to be talking about
> slapping your balls around.)

Nope, not into masochism. Or increased finger or wrist fatigue, either.
 >> Stay informed about: trackball use 

"Vanguard" <no.DeleteThis@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:L6OdnYL8dJIDpNDbnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Ken Maltby" <kmaltby.DeleteThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:fpKdneqxZ6jG-9HbnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Vanguard" <no.DeleteThis@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:WtmdnTgSl6aGP9bbnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> "darklight" wrote in message
>>> news:FOOdndivEuDqJ9fbnZ2dnUVZ8silnZ2d@bt.com...
>>>> what logitec trackball were you using i have been using the trackman
>>>> for
>>>> five years with out any problems
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pick one, any one. Logitech's have too much friction - for MY taste.
>>> None of them can you slap the ball and have it spin on its own for more
>>> than maybe a quarter rotation.
>>>
>>
>> Most users would probably settle for a smooth operating
>> pointer, without any jerkiness and a good resolution. What
>> possible use is a free spinning pointer?
>
> Less resistance to movement means less effort to move it to start with and
> after friction reduces after movement starts (but with a far less drop-off
> in the after-movement-starts friction).
>
> Gee, now why would a ball that keeps spinning after letting go have a use?
> Could it be, say, um, games? For moving a cursor around a fixed size
> screen, the original mouse that was made out of a block of wood, nails,
> and a ping-pong ball would do. Now try having to keep lifting your finger
> to keep shoving the ball (or mouse) to move forward through an infinite
> axis that has no physical barrier, like the fixed size of "screen". Even
> if all the ball did was turn you in a direction, it certainly is easier to
> spin the ball than have to move with your fingers only to realize that you
> didn't rotate far enough and have to push the ball again rather than spin
> it and then lay your fingers down when you want the turning to stop.
>

You might want to consider a joystick, for such games. For FPS and
RTS games being able to point at an exact point, quickly is much more
important.

<<Clip, snide misdirection.>>

>> A certain amount of
>> resistance is helpful for fine control.
>
> No such thing as a no-resistance trackball, even if it were floating on
> jets of air. Note that the larger ball with more mass (and along with
> less resistance) would also tend to keep in motion.
>
<<Clip, more snide misdirection.)

It really sounds as if you should get rid of your mouse and use
a joystick, if those are your concerns. They continue to scroll in
a direction until you bring the stick back from a direction.

Luck;
Ken
 >> Stay informed about: trackball use 

On Fri, 18 May 2007 00:29:06 -0500, "Vanguard"
<no.RemoveThis@mail.invalid> wrote:

>"Ken Maltby" <kmaltby.RemoveThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>news:fpKdneqxZ6jG-9HbnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Vanguard" <no.RemoveThis@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:WtmdnTgSl6aGP9bbnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> "darklight" wrote in message
>>> news:FOOdndivEuDqJ9fbnZ2dnUVZ8silnZ2d@bt.com...
>>>> what logitec trackball were you using i have been using the trackman
>>>> for
>>>> five years with out any problems
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pick one, any one. Logitech's have too much friction - for MY taste.
>>> None of them can you slap the ball and have it spin on its own for
>>> more than maybe a quarter rotation.
>>>
>>
>> Most users would probably settle for a smooth operating
>> pointer, without any jerkiness and a good resolution. What
>> possible use is a free spinning pointer?
>
>Less resistance to movement means less effort to move it to start with
>and after friction reduces after movement starts (but with a far less
>drop-off in the after-movement-starts friction).
>

True until a point, that point being the user's ability to
manipulate their digits in very fine increments. Once that
point is reached, control will be more precise if it is
harder to spin than if it were infinitely (frictionless)
easy. IMO, to many people it will matter more how large the
ball is, larger being easier, but with it larger that will
tend to make it more important that the effort:mass ratio is
lower than with a smaller ball.

The mass issue has another implication, that some will want
a more massive ball that may require more effort to start
but then the mass causes it to continue rotating longer.




>Gee, now why would a ball that keeps spinning after letting go have a
>use? Could it be, say, um, games? For moving a cursor around a fixed
>size screen, the original mouse that was made out of a block of wood,
>nails, and a ping-pong ball would do. Now try having to keep lifting
>your finger to keep shoving the ball (or mouse) to move forward through
>an infinite axis that has no physical barrier, like the fixed size of
>"screen".

For the old crudely controlled arcade games using a very
large ball I would tend to agree. Centipede for example.
On a modern PC game with a smaller ball I don't feel people
are as often taking their fingers or hand off the ball to
let it free-wheel, spin, rather keeping a constant contact
to the ball with their hand. Certainly not everyone would,
but then everyone doesn't like using balls at all either and
everyone is not playing the same game nor does everyone have
the same dexterity.



>Even if all the ball did was turn you in a direction, it
>certainly is easier to spin the ball than have to move with your fingers
>only to realize that you didn't rotate far enough and have to push the
>ball again rather than spin it and then lay your fingers down when you
>want the turning to stop.
>
>But then some people claim that they like heavier wireless mice than the
>lighter corded ones although their mouse never leaves the confines of
>the mouse pad or its equivalent area. Maybe some slow-typing users
>prefer keyboards with much stiffer springs or membranes that require
>harder pushing.

It can be the opposite, a fast typist needs more tactile
feedback so they're not waiting for a response from the
screen but can *assume* that when the keypress was felt, it
was enough. I don't mean very hard to press keys though,
that would be most appropriate for someone who had tained on
an old manual or early electric typewriter to merely
reproduce that level of feedback.


> From what I read in the OP's post, he didn't like even
>what you might think is the minimal friction that is inherent in that
>trackball. There are *smoother* trackballs. I don't recall talking to
>anyone before that would equate smoother with more resistance.
>
>> A certain amount of
>> resistance is helpful for fine control.
>
>No such thing as a no-resistance trackball, even if it were floating on
>jets of air. Note that the larger ball with more mass (and along with
>less resistance) would also tend to keep in motion.

True but it can still mean a certain amount of resistance
that is more than the bare minimum possible. Remember that
it does have some finite mass and as such, it not only takes
effort to start it moving, it also takes effort to stop it
moving. A freely spinning large ball is not going to be
very precise at all if it makes more than a fraction of a
revolution before coming to a stop, unless the speed of the
*cursor* was very slow which is then causing the need to
spin it more but it is not necessarily the user's goal to
achieve this if they had good dexterity.
 >> Stay informed about: trackball use 

"Ken Maltby" <kmaltby.TakeThisOut@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:yIudnZVnAeVUh9PbnZ2dnUVZ_sGqnZ2d@giganews.com...
> You might want to consider a joystick, for such games. For FPS and
> RTS games being able to point at an exact point, quickly is much more
> important.

Way, WAY, W-A-Y too slow a device interface. I used to use joysticks.
I thought using a mouse was dumb, until I actually started using a mouse
and realized how much faster a response I could get. The joystick went
into a drawer and I'm not sure I even have it anymore.
 >> Stay informed about: trackball use 

"kony" <spam.TakeThisOut@spam.com> wrote in message
news:r6gs43dv0lb5ev1lv2k6su5q2a7c6rkfav@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 18 May 2007 00:29:06 -0500, "Vanguard"
> <no.TakeThisOut@mail.invalid> wrote:
>
>>"Ken Maltby" <kmaltby.TakeThisOut@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>news:fpKdneqxZ6jG-9HbnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>> "Vanguard" <no.TakeThisOut@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:WtmdnTgSl6aGP9bbnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>> "darklight" wrote in message
>>>> news:FOOdndivEuDqJ9fbnZ2dnUVZ8silnZ2d@bt.com...
>>>>> what logitec trackball were you using i have been using the
>>>>> trackman
>>>>> for
>>>>> five years with out any problems
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Pick one, any one. Logitech's have too much friction - for MY
>>>> taste.
>>>> None of them can you slap the ball and have it spin on its own for
>>>> more than maybe a quarter rotation.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Most users would probably settle for a smooth operating
>>> pointer, without any jerkiness and a good resolution. What
>>> possible use is a free spinning pointer?
>>
>>Less resistance to movement means less effort to move it to start with
>>and after friction reduces after movement starts (but with a far less
>>drop-off in the after-movement-starts friction).
>>
>
> True until a point, that point being the user's ability to
> manipulate their digits in very fine increments. Once that
> point is reached, control will be more precise if it is
> harder to spin than if it were infinitely (frictionless)
> easy. IMO, to many people it will matter more how large the
> ball is, larger being easier, but with it larger that will
> tend to make it more important that the effort:mass ratio is
> lower than with a smaller ball.
>
> The mass issue has another implication, that some will want
> a more massive ball that may require more effort to start
> but then the mass causes it to continue rotating longer.
>
>
>
>
>>Gee, now why would a ball that keeps spinning after letting go have a
>>use? Could it be, say, um, games? For moving a cursor around a fixed
>>size screen, the original mouse that was made out of a block of wood,
>>nails, and a ping-pong ball would do. Now try having to keep lifting
>>your finger to keep shoving the ball (or mouse) to move forward
>>through
>>an infinite axis that has no physical barrier, like the fixed size of
>>"screen".
>
> For the old crudely controlled arcade games using a very
> large ball I would tend to agree. Centipede for example.
> On a modern PC game with a smaller ball I don't feel people
> are as often taking their fingers or hand off the ball to
> let it free-wheel, spin, rather keeping a constant contact
> to the ball with their hand. Certainly not everyone would,
> but then everyone doesn't like using balls at all either and
> everyone is not playing the same game nor does everyone have
> the same dexterity.
>
>
>
>>Even if all the ball did was turn you in a direction, it
>>certainly is easier to spin the ball than have to move with your
>>fingers
>>only to realize that you didn't rotate far enough and have to push the
>>ball again rather than spin it and then lay your fingers down when you
>>want the turning to stop.
>>
>>But then some people claim that they like heavier wireless mice than
>>the
>>lighter corded ones although their mouse never leaves the confines of
>>the mouse pad or its equivalent area. Maybe some slow-typing users
>>prefer keyboards with much stiffer springs or membranes that require
>>harder pushing.
>
> It can be the opposite, a fast typist needs more tactile
> feedback so they're not waiting for a response from the
> screen but can *assume* that when the keypress was felt, it
> was enough. I don't mean very hard to press keys though,
> that would be most appropriate for someone who had tained on
> an old manual or early electric typewriter to merely
> reproduce that level of feedback.
>
>
>> From what I read in the OP's post, he didn't like even
>>what you might think is the minimal friction that is inherent in that
>>trackball. There are *smoother* trackballs. I don't recall talking
>>to
>>anyone before that would equate smoother with more resistance.
>>
>>> A certain amount of
>>> resistance is helpful for fine control.
>>
>>No such thing as a no-resistance trackball, even if it were floating
>>on
>>jets of air. Note that the larger ball with more mass (and along with
>>less resistance) would also tend to keep in motion.
>
> True but it can still mean a certain amount of resistance
> that is more than the bare minimum possible. Remember that
> it does have some finite mass and as such, it not only takes
> effort to start it moving, it also takes effort to stop it
> moving. A freely spinning large ball is not going to be
> very precise at all if it makes more than a fraction of a
> revolution before coming to a stop, unless the speed of the
> *cursor* was very slow which is then causing the need to
> spin it more but it is not necessarily the user's goal to
> achieve this if they had good dexterity.
>


The larger mass with its inherent momentum gives me the "minimal
resistance" mentioned. The ability for it to keep spinning means I can
lift my fingers and then use them as an instant brake for fast and
accurate control. However, I do get stuck using a mouse on several
hosts and there it's just the opposite that I prefer: a lightweight
mouse. This is due to the repeated lifting and respositioning of the
mouse which is always required unless you disable acceleration;
otherwise, the mouse will always get off-center from its starting
position, but too often there isn't enough desk space to not use
acceleration.
 >> Stay informed about: trackball use 

On May 18, 4:29 pm, "Ken Maltby" <kmal... DeleteThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> You might want to consider a joystick, for such games. For FPS and
> RTS games being able to point at an exact point, quickly is much more
> important.

are you are suggesting a joystick for FPS or RTS games? if so, you are
no gamer. joysticks (? gampads?) are good for very few genres.

a well-functioning mouse or trackball is what you need for FPS. and
you *definately* need pixel-accuracy. thus, a jerky trackball sucks.
as-is, i will still have to use a mouse for them (same for detailed
photoshop work). thus my OP.

> <<Clip, snide misdirection.>>

odd, i didnt detect any snideness at all. just stating preferences and
opinions. which is, after all, what i asked for in my OP.


sm
 >> Stay informed about: trackball use 

<spacemarine.DeleteThis@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:1179589809.662336.195520@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On May 18, 4:29 pm, "Ken Maltby" <kmal....DeleteThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> You might want to consider a joystick, for such games. For FPS and
>> RTS games being able to point at an exact point, quickly is much more
>> important.
>
> are you are suggesting a joystick for FPS or RTS games? if so, you are
> no gamer. joysticks (? gampads?) are good for very few genres.
>
> a well-functioning mouse or trackball is what you need for FPS. and
> you *definately* need pixel-accuracy. thus, a jerky trackball sucks.
> as-is, i will still have to use a mouse for them (same for detailed
> photoshop work). thus my OP.

No, that was a reply to Vanguard's search for a free spinning
trackball, so that he could continuously scroll through a large
map. I was pointing out that for FPS and RTS the normal
non-spinning mouse/trackball with their "being able to point
at an exact point, quickly is much more important." Also,
later in that reply I said: "It really sounds as if you should get
rid of your mouse and use a joystick, if those are your concerns.
They continue to scroll in a direction until you bring the stick
back from a direction." This would be a more practical than
looking for a free spinning mouse or trackball.

I do detailed graphic manipulations with a trackball, and
yes I also play a number of games. There is no way I could
work with a "jerky trackball". You could try a little research
on your own. Try a Google of "mouse speed tweak" without
the quotes.

Luck;
Ken
 >> Stay informed about: trackball use